Pirates Discussion: What is Your Pirates Outfield?

Pirates have used a total of 14 different players in the outfield this season. Everything from light hitting middle infielders, to recent trade acquisitions, or draft picks.

There is obviously Bryan Reynolds. Jack Suwinski is staking a claim with how he’s produced so far. Bligh Madris is off to a hot start.

Cal Mitchell has had his moments, but as most have noticed, his arm leaves a lot to be desired.

Travis Swaggerty didn’t receive much of a chance, but I would imagine sees another extended opportunity.

There’s still even a handful of outfielders on the IL set to return at some point. On the bright side, there are enough choices and depth that they can actually maintain having four actual outfielders rostered consistently.

Today’s discussion is just a question: What is your Pirates outfield moving forward?

I’d be interested in a mix and match outfield of Reynolds, Suwinski, Madris, and Swaggerty.

PIRATES @ RAYS

Time: 1:40 PM EST

Pirates Starter: Roansy Contreras (2-1, 2.89)

Rays Starter: Shane McLanahan (7-1, 1.81)

Contreras Notes: Roansy takes the mound for his 7th start, and 10th appearance of the season. So far this season, he has relied mainly on a combination of a Four-Seam Fastball, Slider, and Curveball. The Four-Seam and Curveball have generated a whiff rate of 22.2%, while the slider is almost double the whiff rate, 41.2%. He does have a changeup in his repertoire, but has only thrown it 25 times (per Baseball Savant), and it hasn’t generated strong results. 

LINEUPS:

Pirates

Rays

1. Yandy Diaz (R) 3B
2. Wander Franco (S) SS
3. Randy Arozarena (R) LF
4. Ji-Man Choi (L) DH
5. Harold Ramirez (R) RF
6. Josh Lowe (L) CF
7. Isaac Paredes (R) 1B
8. Francisco Mejia (S) C
9. Vidal Brujan (S) 2B

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Tim Williams

Things I acquired at The Trop this weekend:

**A dozen features on the big league club to run this week on Pirates Prospects

**This shirsey

Last edited 1 month ago by Tim Williams
PirateRican21

Boooo, booo

Tim Williams

PirateRican21

😂

kja1970

Go Glasnow!

redwards60

Can Mitchell be moved to first base, since his arm is sub major league caliber?

skliesen

Thinking back to the key play of the game, the SB by Arrozarena. If I’m a MI and a base runner is dead to rights and pulls the swim move to avoid the tag, I’m definitely tagging him right on his nose. Safe or out, he’s paying a price for taking away his arm from the tag.

Wilbur Miller

Opening salvo in the pending barrage of stoopid — Mackey reports VanMeter will rejoin the team tomorrow.

redwards60

Stunning stupidity but I am not surprised. BC is NH 2.0…..it is a disgrace that VanMeter and Park are in Pittsburgh and Bae is not.

kja1970

OF is not a problem for the Pirates for the foreseeable future

Current players with reps there plus Cruz (or Liover), Bae, Triolo, Gorski, Oliva, Gonzales, and a bunch of guys at lower levels

However they do need a 1B

The Pirates’ 1B have been about as bad as any team at any position for the past 20 years

They had one good season from Bell, one from LaRoche, and one from K Young

All other years were below average according to baseball-reference

kja1970

16 teams in MLB have been receiving average or better play at 1B

All 16 of those teams have a single player that plays the position and that position alone

The top 4 are …

Cards – Paul Goldschmidt (all 13020 innings in MLB at 1st)
Seattle – Ty France (all 600 innings this year at 1st) – 1552/2280 innings at first in career
Dodgers – Freddie Freeman – 13911 innings at 1st (136 at 3rd)
Washington – Josh Bell – 5571.1 at 1st out of 5739.1 in MLB

The other 12 are: Christian Walker (ARI), Vladimir Guerrero Jr (TOR), CJ Cron (COL), Anthony Rizzo (NYY), Ji-Man Choi (TB), Pete Alonso (NYM), Eric Hosmer (SDP), Rhys Hoskins (PHI), Ryan Mountcastle (BAL), Matt Olson (ATL), Jose Abreu (CWS), Jared Walsh (LAA)

kja1970

1B are obtainable by the draft, trades, IFA market, or the free agent market

Pirates typically ignore 1B in the draft (except for a recent WFU pitcher / DH and Josh Bell from 11 years ago)

Pirates don’t spend in the FA market

Pirates don’t focus on 1B in the IFA market (it’s 90% SS, CF, RHP)

So maybe it’s a trade?

Andrew Vaughn (CWS)?
Rhys Hoskins (PHI) / Alec Bohm (PHI)
Ryan Mountcastle (BAL) / Trey Mancini (BAL)

If not it needs to be in the draft

Better yet, add some in trades and some in the draft

kja1970

The North Carolina HS ranks offer a few options after rounds 1 and 2

https://www.baseballamerica.com/players/110601/ryan-clifford/

kja1970
kja1970

And that seems legit

From BA

“ Isaac is an extra-large, 6-foot-4, 240-pound first baseman who has monstrous raw power and bat speed. He hits towering home runs to all fields in batting practice—to the point where scouts don’t seem to hesitate when grading him out with 80 raw power”

https://www.perfectgame.org/Players/Playerprofile.aspx?ID=492641

Last edited 1 month ago by kja1970
AdministrativeSky236

I am hopeful 1B will be taken care of with guys who have the bat but blocked positionally, maybe gorski, madris, mitchell all options with possible OF logjam. Maybe gonzales or triolo if either of them hit enough

kja1970

Can you think of a single example at the MLB level where that’s happened?

1979andCounting

It’s not common but there’s Josh Bell, Todd Helton, Rafael Palmeiro, Pops Stargell.

bscat

Intentionally walk H Ramirez to pitch to Paredes . . . in what bizarro universe does that make sense? Promote Don Kelly. Shelton can drive Chang & Yoshi out of town.

1979andCounting

Except that Ramirez was walked to get to sub .200 Josh Lowe. It was the correct move. But Banda grooved one for Lowe.

bucsws2014

On the OF question, I give ABs to Gamel soon as he’s back. Hopefully he continues to have value. He’s not a big trade chip, but only he and Quintana will bring back anything. Once Gamel is gone at deadline, plenty of time to sort out the OF.

RAS TN

Can’t wait until the Washington series watch out for a repeat…

chappy

Short of one’s team being blown out all 3 games this is about as annoying and frustrating a sweep as I can imagine. It isn’t inconceivable that we could have swept, instead of them, but we lost all 3.

Last edited 1 month ago by chappy
Wilbur Miller

It’s what happens when you still have a chunk of the roster taken up by less-than-useless players and an idiot manager. In nearly every game, the wrong player will pop up at the wrong time, and Dumbo will increase the chances of that happening by, for instance, being the only person this side of the Himalayas who doesn’t know what a platoon split is.

PiratePrimate

At this level the game is decided by who makes the fewest mistakes. A team like the Pirates with a manager like Shelton doesn’t win too many close ones against good teams. The LA sweep was a once every 20 years phenomena.

jon6er

After Hayes helped Beede clean up his first batter’s double and there were two outs I thought okay lets get this last out. Didn’t think a whole lot about his pitching change of left on left till I heard someone mention Choi was 12 for 24 against left handers and then I went right to a “WTF” moment.

AdministrativeSky236

And here I was not knowing that statistic thinking that shelton might have actually played it pretty well, turns out i was a bit wrong lol

jon6er

I kind of was in shock when I heard that and it made me even more pissed off after the double that Brown went on a tirade blaming everything on Diego because he didn’t get a tag on the runner stealing second. Guy made a nice slide and Diego couldn’t adjust in time.

PirateRican21

I noticed that too, and was taken a back by it.

EightMenOut

Choi is a career .215 off lefties and career .254 of righties, OPS against lefties is more than 200 points lower than against righties. usually SSS don’t outrank career numbers. Ok to criticize a manager, but make sure you’re not just picking and choosing your stats to fit your narrative.

jon6er

What does that have to do with the fact this season he was 12 for 24 going into that at bat.

EightMenOut

everything. You bring in the lefty because for his career Choi has hit lefties much worse than righties. You don’t put much weight in 24 at-bats this year. But I am actually guessing it goes much beyond that. I would think the Pirate statisticians have basically projected how Choi does against each Pirate reliever before that series, and handed that off to Shelton. For example, if you want to put a lot of importance on the those 24 at-bats, then you would look at who they were, what were the ERAs of those left-handed pitchers, how do they match up against our left-handed pitchers. What if Choi is good against left handed fastballs, but not left handed breaking balls, etc….. I think it is fine to criticize a manager, but I do find it often over simplistic when someone criticizes a manager, when it is highly likely the manager has access to a lot more information than we have. Like it or not, Shelton was probably playing the percentages/stats correctly in that at bat.

jon6er

Well since he’s 13 for 25 now maybe he has figured it out plus Beede faced 7 batters and 4 batting from the left side had two striking out and two weak ground outs with the 3 guys from the right side getting two doubles and a ground out. I don’t care what Beede did against left handed hitters last year but tonight he was making them look silly. I guess I’m forgetting that it’s Shelton tanking rather then he’s overmatched managing a baseball team.

AdministrativeSky236

I think this is the art vs the science of baseball. One school of thought is follow the numbers to all ends and the other is to use feel and judgement no matter what the numbers say. Both can work and both can fail, but personally its one of the many reasons that I love the game

1979andCounting

Chang’s last AB as a Pirate? What a sad acquisition. Van Meter please……..

jon6er

I understand and agree on your wish for Chang’s departure but I’m falling a little short on your polite request for VanMeter as his replacement, lol.

AdministrativeSky236

Banda gone and aldred back up please

PiratePrimate

Shelton doesn’t seem to be learning on the job

jon6er

Diego has to block the bag but Choi was 12-24 against lefties before that ab and Shelton brings in a lefty.

roibert.kasperski

Great slide by Arozarena. We have had guys get into a base safely by pulling an arm back and getting around with the other. We praise our guys for the slide so I am gonna have to take my hat off to Arozarena. If Diego does block the bag succeeds by doing so, Tampa still appeals and Arozarena gets awarded the base anyway.

jon6er

I agree with most of what you say but while it is not wise to block the bag with your leg if they are sliding feet first it is not illegal. Even if he does block the bag he probably still doesn’t get him. I’m not dumping on Diego I’m simply stating a fact that if a guy is sliding headfirst and you have time you should block the bag. I stand by what I posted several times today, WTF is Shelton switching to a lefthander against a guy who is 12-24 against left handed pitching.

roibert.kasperski

Maybe I have the rule wrong but I don’t think a fielder is aloud to block the bag at 2nd or 3rd. If he,would,have moved to block the runner, the runner is going to be ruled safe on appeal by the Rays. Not arguing about Choi bringing in Banda.

jon6er

It was a tag play not a force play. Fielders often block the bases on tag plays. You’ve seen it many times Robert it’s just not clicking right now, lol. If you remember the Cubs series Wisdom blocked third with his leg anticipating Reynolds sliding but he didn’t and stepped over Wisdom’s leg but spiked him some. I don’t remember the series but before Marcano went on the Covid il he completely blocked second base to get a runner on a steal attempt. It’s risky injury wise is why you don’t see it that often but it is legal on a tag play.

1979andCounting

Banda is putting it center/center. Easy hitting it there.

ricramer

He’s giving up two hits per IP with a few walks sprinkled in there. He needs to be the next DFA.

1979andCounting

And a third hitter center cut…????

1979andCounting

Our guys can learn a lot about sliding from Rays.

1979andCounting

Broken record…….I don’t get these coaches coming home on contact. Balls to pitcher and third have to freeze. But we’ll take the easy out!

RAS TN

Oh well, another bullpen game it was nice while it lasted…

Wilbur Miller

This’ll be three straight bullpen games they’ve lost, but GMBS just keeps recycling the same old waiver wonders, so he must be encouraged.

PirateRican21

I must have rose color glasses, I think that the bullpen is gonna be fine, I’m seeing good things from Beede, Underwood and Yerry, Cam seems to have a great slider and Crowe and Dejung are serviceable, so is Banda. The problem might be how they are getting deployed.

AdministrativeSky236

I am with you… just unsure if its with the glasses choice or that the bullpen will actually be ok lol

RAS TN

They are not the first ones nor will they be the last ones…

PirateRican21

I’m really liking Beede and Underwood might end up better than Crowe/Dejong!

jon6er

I think they are both great for one inning but they make me nervous going out for the second.

PirateRican21

And that’s not bad.

PiratePrimate

Chavis and Castillo aren’t ready to face someone like McClanahan

jon6er

They can’t seem to adjust from trying to pull the ball and hit it a mile and the Rays are pitching them accordingly. If only there was a hitting coach in the dugout telling them to slow down their bats and go the other way, lol.

PirateRican21

Few are, he’s a Cy candidate this year.

RAS TN

What no ROY??

PirateRican21

?

1979andCounting

He’s a 2nd year guy, wouldn’t qualify for ROY.

PiratePrimate

Yeah, no doubt but this was a special kind of helplessness today

jon6er

Well Roansy can’t be saddled with a loss, lol.

PirateRican21

Is Contreras tipping his slider?

PirateRican21

The curious case of pirates pitching plan against Choi.

1979andCounting

Seems Choi really has a good eye, doesn’t chase.

PirateRican21

But why not come after him, he has walk after falling behind three times already. They keep trying to hit the high away zone and missing badly with the fastball.

1979andCounting

Their pitching him carefully for sure. The 151 OPS + is probably why.

PirateRican21

Now I get it!

PirateRican21

Do you think he finish the season as a starter this year? Referring to his innings.

1979andCounting

Ughh Jack with very weak throw from CF. Fortunately Rays 3rd B coach doesn’t have scouting report.

joebaseball

Trade Cruz to the Rays for McClanahan pirate pitchers need someone to teach them to fill up the zone.

chappy

A couple of legit RISP hits for Reynolds in this series.

chappy

I really like Heineman. Classic back-up catcher in the best sense of that designation.

bucsws2014

Bunting is not overall as useful as “smart hitting”, IMHO.

1979andCounting

Agreed, but with Heineman bunting is about as useful as we’re going to get.

PirateRican21

2 nd inning troubles, theme for the series, not to mention losing by way of walk off.

1979andCounting

Helluva pitching matchup today. This is the kind of duel that is can’t miss TV.

PirateRican21

Depends on Contreras’ slider command!

1979andCounting

Clay Holmes scoreless streak is over. So there’s still hope for Bednar. He was out of sorts yesterday, shaking off Perez repeatedly, lack of command. He’ll bounce back.

AdministrativeSky236

Hoping burrows replaces him when he does!

EightMenOut

Cruz in right field, as I don’t think he will stick at shortstop, and his arm can be useful protecting against first to third, and cutting down on doubles off the Clemente wall and doubles into the short corner.  

KirkV12

Having so many lefties is great with PNC Park’s short porch. But it’s hard to maintain all these lefty rookie OFs on the roster while still having sub options when there’s a tough lefty starter for the opposition. I would venture to guess it has something to do with the boom/bust nature of our offense this year, with so many near-no hitters and then a bunch of games where they put up 7+ runs

jon6er

Who ask Shelton for spare Chang?

KirkV12

Left to right my top starting lineup would have Swaggerty, Reynolds, Suwinski. Mitchell at DH and Madris at 1B.

Madris and Mitchell can cycle into RF a couple times per week, and Gamel can start half the games when he returns from rehab, until we trade him at the deadline.

Of course all of this shifts as performance dictates, but I still believe in Mitchell’s bat long term and he deserves a long look. Historically he’s been a guy who has long cold streaks and long hot streaks, so it could be his natural pattern to be hitting .190 right now and then turn on the jets a month from now til the end of the season. The OF would have good defense with Swag/Rey/Jack.

PirateRican21

Whenever there’s a really tough lefty on the mound, Cal gets the call.

joesolo6181

Don’t count out Frazier.

PirateRican21

Hayes in the line up, but wait…..

1979andCounting

“We’ve come along way baby”……from the OFs of 2020 and 2021. And even from Opening Day 2022. Marisnak was starter, Tucker and Castillo were sharing OF duties. I thought Greg Allen might stick as #3 , but although he could lead the team in OBP, his slugging isn’t going to keep up with Reynolds and Jack and Bligh’s slugging %. Still I’d like to see Allen as #4 OFer for a 30 – 60 game stretch.

1979andCounting

Mtgj

Your scenario is exactly what I want to see.

Reynolds- madris- suwinski- swaggerty Those 4 but u I guys mixing and matching for the rest of the year.

I have seen enough of cal Mitchell. It’s going to be hard to not play Ben gamel when he is healthy but I would rather give the other guys a chance to see what they have than to give gamel at bats even though we would be a better team with gamel.

Wilbur Miller

I’m so relieved to see actual outfielders playing the outfield that I almost don’t care.

Bottom line right now, though, is give everybody as much chance as you can manage and see who wins. It’d help a lot of the DH spot was open.

PirateRican21

Is hard to open the DH spot when Volgy is at -0.2 WAR.

Last edited 1 month ago by PirateRican21
Wilbur Miller

Can’t be spared.

Wonder what his WAR would be if Dumbo didn’t play him so much against LHPs.

PirateRican21

Probably .01. Still can’t run, nor field other than the occasional home run there’s not much there.

jon6er

And Shelton has a lot of Hurdles worst traits and he went as far as embarrassing Srod by sending him out there way past when it was obvious he had nothing left.

jon6er

I agree with your take on the outfield. Cal would have to be a offensive beast to justify that arm but otherwise he would be a nice bench piece in the majors. I’m still puzzled by the use of Swags when they brought him up. Madris has given them professional at bats and good defense so far. I’d still like to see Reynolds moved from center when a guy like Swags comes up.

Mtgj

I think it’s really important to get Reynolds moved to left fielder by the time next year starts.

hoptown

Right now I’d go Reynolds, Suwinski, Bae, Mitchell, and Madris. I’d cut Chang immediately and Bae can function as a utility player, and all those guys can take some reps at DH.

KirkV12

No idea why they ever acquired Chang… or Vanmeter… or Jake Marisnick.

At least they’ve already cut Tucker and Knapp. The injuries have also been convenient ones in terms of getting playing time to guys with actual potential while no-upside vets are on the DL. Hopefully they’ve seen enough to make wise choices when the roster crunch officially comes.

bucsws2014

I could understand Marisnick. There was a point when Bucs couldn’t actually field three real OFers. At least Marisnick gives you defense.

tedwins

My blood boils when I read Bae and utility player in the same reference…. if his name was Swaggerty or Nickie G. with his rise and performance at each level there would be no utility stuff reference…. Bae is everyday player at one primary position, 2B, for MLB buccos, imho🤷‍♂️😅😅

1979andCounting

Nice to see you coming strong to the mic, Ted! Not that I agree about Bae, but you’re giving us something to chew on.

PirateRican21

Best fielding and hitting outfield would be Suwinski, Swaggerty, Reynolds. With Madris as the 4th and hope that Gorski is a legit big leaguer to balance this heavy left handed outfield.

AdministrativeSky236

Do you think hes the real deal and not just this year’s fraizer

roberto

Well, he’s doing well in a higher level, but a fair question.

RAS TN

The bottom line for me is the Pirates need to stop trading away their best players for some magical return somewhere in the next millennial and find a place for them in the now future. Who is playing in the outfield next year and the year after is TBD…

If playing Gamel is not allowing a prospect to get his opportunity now then Gamel needs to be traded for whatever, and allow Swaggerty and Mitchel to play at the major league level…

roberto

So you think the Rays’ models doesn’t work. Explain?

RAS TN

Explain what??, I think what I posted is very self-explanatory and says nothing about Rays…

roibert.kasperski

The Rays and the Cards to an extent trade several of their best players. The Cards tend to extend a few of their best players but only Wainwright and Molina have be long term players. The Rays tend to trade just about all of their best players for “magical” returns. It is a valid point that you appear to say what the Cards and Rays do does not work.

Last edited 1 month ago by roibert.kasperski
RAS TN

Again no mention of any team period just making a comment…But if I were to pick a team how about the Astros seems they have found some magic…

AdministrativeSky236

Or some trash can lids lol

AdministrativeSky236

Imo gamel will come back for a few weeks to show he is healthy then go before the deadline, probably not for much but an 18 year old that hits 97 in low A would make me happy

skliesen

I’d roll with Reynolds, Suwinski, and Madris for now. Going to see Gamel come up for Mitchell soon. He’s going to get some starts out there until he’s dealt next month. I would hope TSwag is given a fair shot after Gamel is traded.

Reynolds, Suwinski, Madris, and Swaggerty are the best 4 OF for Pirates next season I would think.

tedwins

Im not a trade Reynolds guy but with Harper seemingly out indefinetely, I wonder if Philly will come knocking with a significant/maybe mind blowing offer🤷‍♂️

AdministrativeSky236

The phillies farm system isn’t super strong, but i would imagine if noone was untouchable then we could find a pretty significant offer to put together! Three of ranger suarez, abel, painter, and o’hoppe would certainly help beef up our future pitching (plus o’hoppe catching). They lack a real top end stud prospect that we would need in this sort of deal though

mpg43952

I’d insist they throw Mark Appel in any deal. He can’t get away from us that easily!

roibert.kasperski

🤣🤣🤣

tedwins

I struggle with the rankings, Nickie G. On May22nd MLB list was 17 and Bae not mentioned… Bae younger, starring in higher level currently, same position, and can throw in CF flexibility to boot… forgive me if Im a bit skeptical of fans stating what teams have for prospect depth when I dont see the “experts” being reasonable🤣🤣🤷‍♂️🤣🤣

tedwins

P.S. @AdminSky, sorry that response by me could seem snarky, wasnt the intent, your was response was good, I just met that I battle with rankings…anyways, back to more realistic topics anyways🤣🤣

AdministrativeSky236

No worries at all! I certainly am no expert and you are definitely right that the experts are no expert either lol

skliesen

Just say no to trading Reynolds. Maybe winter after next. Maybe.

tedwins

Dombrowski still having FO oversight is part of the reason for my post🤔

Wilbur Miller

The few times anything has come out about the Pirates’ ask, they’ve wanted a top-ten-in-MLB position player. For an AS level, controllable position player, that’s what you have to get. I doubt any team will pony up like that. Teams always prefer to give up pitchers to highlight these deals. Too risky.

Wilbur Miller

Yep, the issue isn’t trade or don’t trade, it’s whether you ask for a sh*tload in return and don’t waver.

tedwins

I need Steve Z., good poster I havent seen in awhile, to run the trade calc website thingy on what we can expect at a bare minimum, before DD over spends🤣. Know others have messed ard with that as well, i struggle with my lack of patience on that tool🤣🤣🤣… Just for fun…

Last edited 1 month ago by tedwins
PirateRican21

These are the top 5 Phillies’ prospect,

AdministrativeSky236

Do we make this deal? in your opinion

PirateRican21

I’m a pro Trade Reynolds guy, but this package might be light, only one 50 FV and the rest are 45+-45 per FG.

roberto

I think the Bucs would, but it would trash the Philly talent pool. And the Phils are 9 games out.

tedwins

I do recall it was you who also mastered that site😆👍

PirateRican21

🤗

Mblee24

By the end of the year I want Reynolds, Swaggerty and Suwinski. Then I want Madris or Mitchell platooning at first with Chavis and serving as the 4th outfielder. I am leaning toward Bligh.

AdministrativeSky236

I like this a lot, and to add to it I would prefer reynolds in left and swaggy in center as that would be stronger defensively, but i know that is unlikely

JimEastTennessee

Yes, in a perfect world, I agree with Mblee24. However, the elephant refuses to leave the room…how long does Reynolds stay in Pittsburgh?

Mblee24

That is true. I hope they sign him to like a 5 year deal this off-season.

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