Pirates Trade Francisco Liriano to the Blue Jays

The Pirates made a surprising late move today, dealing Francisco Liriano to the Toronto Blue Jays, according to Robert Murray.

Jon Heyman has since confirmed the news, although that doesn’t seem necessary since Murray has been first on every Liriano transaction in the past.

The Pirates also sent two prospects along in the deal, so this could be big.

No word yet on the return, but I’ll keep this updated.

UPDATE 4:59 PM: The Pirates won’t be picking up any of Liriano’s salary.

The return is one player, according to Ken Rosenthal, which Adam Berry says is Drew Hutchison.

More to come on this soon.

UPDATE 5:04 PM: Buster Olney says that Harold Ramirez is going to Toronto in the deal, and I heard back from a source that confirmed this.

Still one more player to be named.

UPDATE 6:09 PM: Reese McGuire is the other player in the deal, and the move is now official.

Francisco Liriano, Harold Ramirez, and Reese McGuire for Drew Hutchison, with no money going the other way. I’ll have more analysis later.

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OTDLOT18

BHW, you clearly are not a season ticket holder….i respect your opinions no matter how unfounded they are…

BHWonder

What does being a season ticket holder have to do about how unfounded you feel my opinion is?? Lol…Plus if you and I aren’t in the clubhouse and in the coaches meetings, we can only give our opinions about how things are with the organization!! But OTD, I love that we can repectfully disagree!!

OTDLOT18

you are right, BHW, im in a better place now – i apologize for my rantings about being a STH – fans are fans are fans – no matter

OTDLOT18

yes, BHW, in this polarizing world, i always do two things:

1. listen to what others say before speaking (metaphorically)
2. I try to respect another’s opinion and the more passionate I respond actually indicates how vested i am in the conversation – so never take personally 🙂

BHWonder

OMGOODNESS OTD, I love your passion, that is why I am responding!! If I ever thought you were a jerk, I would have kept it moving!! But it is good to see other Pirate fans on here sharing their opinion!! So I love the back and forth that we engage in!! I can see you are a very intelligent person that knows what the hell he is talking about! (Except with me for some reason!! HAHAHA). 2-2 since the trade deadline!! We are on our way!!

OTDLOT18

love the positivity BHW!! I just wish Nutjob would see what could happen if he truly invested in this city…he could become rooney-esque if he chose..but,, he wont….he will go down as the villain one day and we will depend on the next ownership group to lift us up once again

voteforpedro

Somehow we just got a dude who was stashed on a dl so a team could acquire Todd Redmond. F|€~

PieRat

This really comes back to what Madden said before the season, the Pirates FO have been selling us a bag if crap and they have no intention of really playing to win.

Blaine Huff

Just for the heck of it…in almost 600 comments…

I’m hoping the best for Reese.

The kid is a plus defender and the bat seems to be coming along…when Martin is blown out in a year or two, I’ll enjoy watching McGuire take over and establish himself.

He was nothing but good for the organization, and I hope the best for him….it’s going to be hard not to look for his name in the box scores everyday…

PieRat

How can NH even come close to justifying this to fans and season ticket holders.

voteforpedro

What the fuck

PieRat

This trade makes me embarrassed to be a Pirate fan. That doesn’t make me a fair weather fan just because NH is an idiot. This is the price they pay for first stupid mistake of signing Liriano for this much in the first place. So the answere for one mistake is to make another. So, what if Hutchinson has 5 years of control. It just means we have the rights to another bad pitcher for a longer time.

Douglas Byrd

The oddest thing about this is listening to people dismiss two of the top ten Pirates prospects (6 and 7 in the guide) and trading them for a non-prospect who was demoted last year and couldn’t crack the rotation this year in TOR and ‘salary relief’. Everybody on this site knows how valuable prospects/controllable assets are, and these two guys were among the Pirates’ best. Sure they are not Glasnow or Bell, but not invaluable either. In fact, this type of return is what I’d expect for a decent MLB starter. After years of overvaluing prospects, now I guess they are just throw ins. Bizarre. As has been said, Liriano could have been put on waivers and been rid of probably for nothing. I just don’t understand this.

PieRat

For people to defend this trade means they really have drank the cool-aide to the last drop. Everyone with knowledge of baseball can see it for what it is. Even in a bad move or sallary dump you make it look like you got something in return. As desparate as some teams are they would have taken Liriano off waivers at the shot of getting the old Liriano

rjgrinde

So it appears that the key to this deal, aside from getting Franky’s contract off the books, was to reduce the size of the Bucs 40 man roster to 39 (if my math is correct). There is a reason that both McGuire and Ramirez were selected it’s because both are on the 40 man roster. it seems like the Bucs had a very frugal strategy going into this deal, they needed to get rid of Franky and what turned out to be 2 prospects that were on the 40 man roster. The Pirates did not have to include the two prospects to get this deal done, this was done on the Bucs own thrifty volition. This is evidenced by a quote from the Jays GM about the deal, he noted that “the opportunity to add prospects PRESENTED ITSELF” and was not the main focus of the deal. Now I’m not sure if carrying less than 40 men on your 40 man roster is even legal but if it is the motivation to give these guys away is painfully obvious. They must be mighty sure that both of these guys are not going to make it if they are willing to give them away because they need, no want, to nickel and dime their major league roster to death. The Pirates could have easily packaged these guys into a deal to get us a solid (not reclamation worthy) starting pitcher to help now but they were instead packaged to reduce the total salary expense. I know if I played for this team this would be how should I put it? Uninspiring and as a fan I feel like I have been lied to when I have been told over and over again that no deals will be done that impact the future success of this team but I guess I’m confusing winning with success again.

Blaine Huff

And to think….

…earlier today we were discussing whether trading Joyce, Freese, and S-Rod was in the best interest of the team.

Damn, we were so young and innocent just 12 hours ago.

OTDLOT18

after watching the nightly sports report tonight, not only do i agree with pompeani, i agree with one of the callers that made a shrewd observation of the bucs and hurdle this past weekend….he said that hurdle didnt seem right almost like he knew these kinda moves were coming….maybe the whole team knew about it? it would explain some of the early cathartic tweets that Cutch posted about Happ and El Toro…it would explain their lackadaisical/tuned-out performances…

michael t

A Trade That Shall Live In Infamy
credits FDR, Address to Congress December 8th,1941

RickParrish

All I can say is Jose Hernandez, Bobby Hill and Matt Brubeck from the Cubs to the Pirates. Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Loften to the Cubs. The date was July 23, 2003. A trade that may even top this one with Toronto. Maybe…… last one on the Titanic please turn off the lights.

OTDLOT18

Zeise writes one of the most inflammatory articles i have seen regarding a sports franchise’s ownership…take a look, it is priceless:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/zeise-is-right/2016/08/01/Paul-Zeise-Pirates-surrender-season-with-Francisco-Liriano-to-Blue-Jays-trade/stories/201608010159

rich

I’m just curious…did anyone else watch Liriano pitch on Sunday? This was not a guy who still offered hope to win games. I was so pissed off at this talented pitcher, I was really hoping they could get rid of him. The objective was correct. The price might have been too high

OTDLOT18

Rich, did you see his previous start in which he struck out 13 in 7 innings of shutout baseball? Hutchison has NEVER had a game like that in all of his minor/major league career and Frankie has done it bunches of times…

Douglas Byrd

Fair enough. But why trade two top ten prospects? His replacement is Ivan Nova! He’s much worse. Or if you prefer Ryan Vogelsong or maybe Locke! You see, they are all much worse as bad as Liriano has been. He’s been bad this year, but his track record is great in Pittsburgh and he’s not ancient.

OTDLOT18

this really is crazy talk….you dont deal from weakness, plain and simple…if you are ok punting this season anyways, you keep liriano and see if he can straighten things out through the rest of the year or NEXT year…..this organization is just fucking nuts and it is despicable that they carry our great city’s name 🙁

OTDLOT18

for your viewing displeasure:

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/27/sports/sp-bbcolnotes27

lucky 13 years to the week…..odd how a ‘ramirez’ was involved once more – maybe no more drafting of peeps named ‘ramirez’

John Z

After this horrible trade it continues to show difference between small market and large market. Tim wrote a very good article on the broken economics of baseball. It’s a good read and very well wrote. This is just another example of poor revenue sharing between the clubs. It’s why the pirates will always have problems competing with the big clubs

OTDLOT18

since we are mid market according to the nielsen studies, im not sure how applicable this is…

rich

I thought we were bottom third

OTDLOT18

Rich, i am merely going with Nielsen who actually defined media market sizes some time ago….we are bottom third in MLB payroll, but, like many other untruths floating about tonight, small market size is a misnomer, small pocket size is more accurate

Darkstone42

It’s amazing to me how many people have misspelled both McGuire and Hutchison in their comments considering that their names are literally right above the comment window.

Norm C

Plain and Simple… The Cubs owners use their financial resources to make their team better, while the Pirates owner uses his team to make himself richer. What about the fans BN? We deserve better.

Roberrto21

How could they trade Reese Maguire??? Insane!

jimmyz

Trading McGuire for pitching kinda made sense to me last week but I figured McGuire would have been the number 2 or 3 piece in a package shooting for the moon to land Quintana or Archer, not Hutchison and salary relief.

rich

One thing we can look forward to at this late point in the season is a service time dilemma! Hutch has 3.128 service years. With a year being 172 days, he can not be in the majors for more than 43 days. If he is (and he stays up the next two years), he will be a free agent after the 2018 season. So we need to keep him in AAA for August and work on his .

Darkstone42

“Insert here” is probably slider command based on his reverse to even splits for his career. Perhaps changeup command since he allows more walks to lefties, and I’m told he mostly throws his changeup off the plate to them, not getting enough chases.

Joshuatree

This was SO BAD that Tim is disgusted to write further about it!

Blaine Huff

I’ve been wondering where the “I’ll have more analysis later” is almost five hours later….

michael t

I think because this goes against everything the organization claims as their plan. No matter how you look at it salary dumps and selling prospects for cash relief. NH looks like an errand boy by doing this and giving the phony explanation. Tough for the writers to see this as well.

Luke S

True, but even if he did get forced into a salary dump he still fucked that up by giving up waaay too much value just to dump the salary.

Unless Bob told him to both dump salary and act stupid while doing so, NH fucked up any plan he was forced to execute.

How the hell he managed to dump salary yet also throw out prospects like candy i’ll never understand.

michael t

I think the only explanation is he was ordered to dump the whole salary, Shapiro called his bluff and Neal had to give him McGuire at 4:59pm. That squares with the reports coming out.

Luke S

It really doesnt, unless we magically decide this order only came today and not earlier.

It takes some mental twists and turns to let NH off the hook for this crap. If he was told to get rid of all that money, he would have been told so earlier than today.

And there were many, many, many ways to offload all this money in more effective ways. What NH did was just ignore the actual value of the players involved and gifted TOR 1 prospect.

rich

What’s with the conspiracy theories here? Doesn’t it make a lot more sense that NH started looking at a $14 million sink hole for 2017 and said “I need to move this now when I have the chance?” Money limited his options this past offseason and he didn’t want to let another season go by watching Liriano ignoring his pitching coaches.

OTDLOT18

this ‘liriano ignoring his coaches’ nonsense came from where? NH? Nutjob? handy scapegoating, but, i dont believe a word that comes out of their forked tongued mouths…..lies LIES LIES!!

rich

If there is anything odd it is NH making the classic negotiation mistake of really wanting to get “it” done. If the story is true about McGuire coming into play at the end, you either walk and fight another day or he should have taken Ramirez off the table.

michael t

Then why not DFA him and keep the prospects?

OTDLOT18

well put, michael….that is what every other MLB team vying for a playoff spot would do

rich

They wanted financial flexibility in 2017. DFA is different in baseball than football since baseball has guaranteed contracts. Prior to tonight, they could have out righted him in which case he would become a free agent. Any team could sign him to the league minimum and the Pirates would pay the difference in salaries from his contract to the league minimum.
Starting tonight they could have put him on Revocable Waivers meaning if someone claimed him, they would have to take his contract. But it would be highly unlikely if anyone claimed him.

st1300b

Which is why termination is called for.
By the way how the hell does this AAAA arm fit in the rotation? He’s blocked by better prospects.
Cole Taillion Kuhl Glasnow and Brault just for starters. It doesn’t play in my book and to lose a potential Allstar caliber catcher? Just look at what Lucroy was valued at! You don’t throw that away for pennies. Unacceptable.

Luke S

I dont think any team should operate like a video game. One terrible move, even one terrible season shouldnt be the end game for a mid to small market team.

What it should do is place immense pressure on said GM to succeed the following year or else.

And I wholly disagree with Hutch as a AAAA arm. He’s very interesting, just not for 3 times his market value currently.

st1300b

It’s not a video game reaction to see a misappropriation of resources of this magnitude and take steps to stop it before bad goes catastrophic.
We don’t know yet what is in the Nova deal either, prepare to be insulted again IMO.

rich

I’m assuming he is gathering scouting and stuff. Everything will appear in the First Pitch is my guess

Blaine Huff

There’s only one player to gather scouting info on…a guy that made his ML debut 4 years and 3 months ago.

Luke S

There could also be some interesting attempts to quantify the value of the money being eaten+the prospects given up.

With the fervor that is the trade deadline, i’d rather see a more in depth opinion article than one thrown together for speed.

Blaine Huff

I would like to see the value of the money justified…with $17M owed, Liriano was worth…what? 2 WAR?

It would be a hard argument to make that H-Ram and McGuire weren’t worth that in prospect value.

michael t

Baseball writer Joe Sheehan posting that the “league should step in” because the “ownership group is stripping the organization to lower payroll” while benefitting from revenue sharing.
Toronto fans are beaming their forums are calling it “amazing, awesome, great, a steal, rape.” Martin reunited with Frankie, McGuire in the wings. They can’t believe it and describe Hutchison as “frustrating.”
Its being reported up there that the Jays said they were done dealing at 430, but this trade was came up and completed with one minute to go and their GM stuck it to Huntington by forcing McGuire in as part of deal.
A very sad day for the Pittsburgh Pirates and their fans. Where are all the Nutting sycophants tonight? Why does Nutting suddenly need cash?

OTDLOT18

Nutting needs cash because he saw the winter report for 2016-17 and realized that global warming will once again be affecting his ski profits….

Darkstone42

Can we stop using “rape” metaphorically? There are so many other words we can use which don’t invoke one of the sickest and most traumatic things a person can do to someone.

OTDLOT18

i wouldve said that Huntington “had it coming to him”…the way he dressed and danced in front of the Toronto BJs…the filthy things he said while coming onto them

michael t

I paused before keying in that word but it appears multiple times on the Jays fan forums, their words in describing the trade.

Darkstone42

Even so, you don’t have to transcribe it. The point was already conveyed. It was unnecessary.

I realize you’re quoting other people, but there’s no reason to quote people with insufficient dignity to control their language in a reasonable way. Quoting them legitimizes it as a descriptor. It shouldn’t be legitimized.

michael t

I respect your opinion. There were many terms they used to describe the one sided nature of “the trade.” I did not include them all. That term appeared often.

st1300b

People using that term because they are feeling the words in that passionate a way, perhaps looking for some justice for being betrayed by team representatives.
Should be noted that Huntington worked for Shapiro before which is also demoralizing as if traitor actions needed an example for reasons to fire someone.

Darkstone42

There are a lot of words which invoke those same emotions which don’t involve sexual assault.

Luke S

English language is large, with tons of great ways to get ones feelings across in a passionate way.

Much like how one doesnt have to use a curse word to prove passion, one doesnt have to use rape to show any feeling at all.

st1300b

Not everyone may be as eloquent as you my friend.

Luke S

I dont claim to be anything of the sort, but I will say im not lazy enough to use those terms without caring about how it comes off.

I limit my use of curse words in certain situations because I care about the impact it has on others (like kids, or in formal settings).

No different when using terms like that. Rape isnt a term to be thrown about lightly, in my opinion.

Darkstone42

But everyone can practice a modicum of dignity and respect and realize there are some words you shouldn’t use when you don’t have to.

OTDLOT18

wasnt in George Carlin’s dirty words routine….

Darkstone42

Perhaps that’s because George Carlin had the decency to not joke about it.

OTDLOT18

touche….

OTDLOT18

well played, sir

rich

I don’t believe NH (or Nutting) needed cash at all – for this year. This is nothing like the Ramirez salary dump from a decade ago. My guess is he needed cash so that he had maneuvering room next year. Nobody likes to admit it but he has a budget each year and he was up against it in the offseason. This severely impacted the free agents he could attract.

OTDLOT18

there will be no re-investing…dont b silly rich, weve seen this act b4

michael t

The moves in total: Liriano, Niese, Melancon plus actually SELLING top prospects makes me believe Nutting forced immediacy on NH. Huntington did not get stupid in one week.

rich

Why? Nutting and NH have had a budget and NH kept under it. What possibly makes you think that he suddenly changed the budget?
Again, isn’t it way more likely NH saw the season slipping away and traded Melancon for something of value. (I’m not even going to attempt to explain the obvious dump of a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA.) The only possibility is Liriano but I still say he was an albatross for 2017 not 2016.

dr dng

Anyone want to update their prediction for
number of wins this season. I’m dropping
my 88 down to 84. Maybe I’m too optimistic.

No fair waiting until this weekend to update
your prediction. This is such a key week,
both in the standings as well as psychologically
for the team.
0

Thomas H

74

OTDLOT18

ill take 78…..a firm 20 game swing in the wrong direction from last year

JT Crown

If you want to dump Frankie and take nothing in return, someone would’ve taken him off waivers in a couple days. So is this basically trading Ramirez and Reese for Hutchinson ???

docdon385

Just another reminder that baseball is a game only to the fans. To the owners and all of their employees it’s a business and they’ll do whatever makes the most money. If this deal pleases his bosses, NH has done his job whether the fans like it or not.

I had hoped and believed the ownership thought that winning and selling more tickets, merchandise, concessions, etc. would prove to be more profitable than the way the Pirates did things for the previous 20 years, but this kind of move makes me doubt it.

Who knows, maybe he actually knows what he’s doing and this will work out for the best, but if we see more of this sort of thing we’ll know the ownership isn’t happy with their profit margin and winning will become totally irrelevant again. I sure hope not.

st1300b

Disappointingly true post

Jim11

Can’t believe they gave away McGuire in that Liriano trade. Very foolish IMO. And what did they get in return…basically nothing. Salary dump, with Hutchison given to the Pirates just to make it seem like a (bad) trade.
Giving away Ramirez was bad enough; at least they’ve got outfielders. Did I mention that I hated to give away Reese McGuire?

st1300b

Or if McGuire was in why Ramirez too? I mean can you say inept???
No amount of talk will satisfy me in this- NH must go. Period.

Ryan C

NH must go? LOL we have one of the best GM’s in the sport, he would be hired by about 20 other teams in a matter of days.

None of you people know even a fraction of what NH does when it comes to running a baseball team, been reading these “fire NH” comments for years now while the team just keeps getting better and better. How quickly we forget the 20 straight losing seasons and 2nd best record in baseball last year.

Maybe it’s time we start giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yes not all his moves work out but no GM in a small market will ever bat 1.000%. If a move doesn’t make sense to you, maybe it’s not because NH is suddenly an idiot but because you don’t understand the big picture.

st1300b

Maybe your so taken with not finishing under .500 your no longer looking at the game as its intended to be watched. This is a game of champions not of competitors to be ok.
Credit to the development team and pitching gurus Searage and Benedict who turned turds into treasure.
NH has been playing an easy hand after those lean years and it’s time now to work towards the championship not just being competitive.
Is Hutchison a championship piece? If he is then he’s worth the prospects- however a AAA arm with average production throwing 92-93 doesn’t seem like a part worth top 100 prospect assets. That’s on the GM.

OTDLOT18

Ryan, this kind of move could cause another 20 years of losing…very dangerous grounds and we still dont know who is going out for Nova…be prepared for a Cervelli and Kuhl or Brault kind of deal at the end of the season…..another smaller salary dump with another bright star attached…

Luke S

I hate this deal, a lot. Its dumb, excessive, etc etc.

But its premature to call for NH to be fired. It 100% makes next year a “make it or break it” year for me, but one poor year does not a job lose in my opinion. He fucked up the offseason, and this deadline is shit.

Which uses up all good will he created to this point, and makes next year his job.

OTDLOT18

we cannot afford another trading deadline with him at the helm if this wasnt orchestrated by nutjob…probably will package Cervelli, Glasnow and Taillon next year for some 5+ ERA pitcher that was destined to be DFAd…..really NH has to go!

michael t

What worries me Luke and st1300b is what if he was ordered to do this?
I have a hard time believing he would voluntarily give up Ramirez and something as valuable as McGuire for money.
It is sounding more and more like he had no choice.

alex w

These trades were not baseball trades for the most part.
The Pirates have the smallest local television market of the 30 major league teams. Local television is the money that is now driving the finances of baseball
I can only think of one owner in nfl, mlb, nhl,and nba who is willing to consistently lose money (Tigers). Cuban would not buy the Pirates with the current economics of baseball.
NH would be hired immediately by most teams should he resign today and he will not be fired. Nutting is a typical businessman not willing to lose money. Given the financial structure of MLB Pirate fans should be very, very happy if the team makes the playoffs once every five years.
Our focus needs to be on trying to get the financial structure changed – and by the way if the Maras and hallas had not agreed to revenue sharing years ago there would not be any super bowl trophies in Green Bay or Pittsburgh

OTDLOT18

Cuban would absolutely buy the pirates…he wanted the cubs….he wants into the MLB club….

michael t

The Pirates are not losing money Alex. Check out their revenues, reported expenses.

escilade18

While the Cubs just continue to print and print and print and print and print money to buy their WS

Jbrooks

If top prospects are blocked they should be traded for other baseball needs. Trading prospects in order to induce a team to absorb salary owed to another player traded with those products is nothing but a naked salary dump and squandering of prospects.

Blaine Huff

You folks are crazy.

The only other deal possible was Marte, Bell, and Meadows for Pablo Sandoval.

NH chose wisely.

GreenWeenie

JN for Bastardo: OK. JN just wasn’t working out.

Liriano for a bucket of baseballs. OK. The dude was getting payed and sucked donkey balls this year. the Pirates probably figured that they got about as much out of him as they were gonna get. He was solid during his time here. Young prospects ready, team is mediocre, Frankie sucking DB’s, time to move on.

I’m still trying to understand the rest of that trade. They give FL away for nothing and take his salary off the books. I get it. The Pirates give up a solid 4th outfielder prospect and their best catching prospect for a guy with 12 innings in the big leagues? His minor league stats don’t exactly inspire confidence. What am I missing? If this is the kind of deal they’re doing, who will be the PTBNL’s in the Yankee trade? Geez.

Blaine Huff

Before I check the calendar…

Is August Fool’s Day a thing?

I’m hoping so….

Luke S

I believe they renamed today “Pirate sadness day”.

michael t

how about: A Day That Shall Live In Infamy

OTDLOT18

that was pretty funny, blaine 🙂

michael t

I have to wonder now if the FO has sent out a couple of shills on this site after reading the comments below defending the trade.

James

I like the deal. I like Hutchison and think he’ll improve with experience. I like his high strikeouts to walks rate. Now that he has gotten his TJ surgery out of the way (just like Ivan Nova has also gotten his TJ surgery out of the way), he should be a nice healthy arm to have around.

Ramirez had too many other good outfielders blocking him, and the catching future is Elias Diaz & Cervelli.

Liriano and his albatross contract is gone, and that will free the Pirates up in many ways.

I think Wilmoth is nuts to call this a terrible trade. Hutchison is better than he makes him out to be.
In a next few years people are going to be backtracking a lot about their comments on this deal, and I look forward to reading all their excuses.

OTDLOT18

If Hutchison was soo good, why was he not even starting for the BJs? I’ll be the first one to backtrack…..but even if he turns out to be ok, not going to make up for what was lost in Reese and Harold….Fuck, this is really going to make it impossible for Altoona to win a championship this year….

OTDLOT18

K, “James” and “Richard C” in accordance with amazon rules, you need to end your comment/review with the following “i received money from bob nutting for my honest and unbiased review”

Darren G

Wow. You must be a big fan of Kool-Aid. We could have obtained Hutchinson for probably Trevor Williams straight up, if not less. That is why this is a horrible trade. Perhaps Hutchison will turn things around in the future but his present value was minimal at best. No if, ands or buts.

Darkstone42

Trevor Williams straight up is a severe undervaluing of Hutchison. He’s a much more talented pitcher than Williams, performing better now and with a much higher ceiling. I think it was an overpayment to get him, too, but equating Williams and Hutchison is kind of ridiculous.

OTDLOT18

Darkstone, Darren is right….think about it, if Hutchison is soo good, why would they trade him away for a fella with almost a 6 era in the middle of a pennant race?

piraddict

To get Reese and Ramirez.

Darkstone42

They traded Hutchison for two elite prospects, not for Liriano. For the Jays, Liriano is just a very expensive lottery ticket.

OTDLOT18

Let me rephrase…..would the cubs make that kind of deal for hutchinson? would the cardinals? fair or not, we are in the NL Central and we need to compete in the NL Central….there are no bubbles we can hide in

michael t

Who they hope Martin will really help.

Darren G

Hutchinson has four years of MLB experience and only two years of control left. He is a right-handed Jeff Locke at this point. Ya he could finally realize his upside but this is a long shot at best. If you think Williams for Hutchinson straight up is ridiculous tell me what you would have traded for him.

rich

Hutch has a shot at being an MLB #3 starter and a floor of a #5 . That is higher than PP rates Williams, Kuhl and Brault. So maybe a Kingham with the uncertainty he has?

OTDLOT18

Rich, do you guys even research any of this before spouting this off? Hutch has a floor as a #6 or #7 starter as he has already been bounced multiple times from Toronto’s rotation….i wouldve swapped kingham for this kid straight up, nothing more…

rich

Oh and you’ll note that Kingham isn’t that far away from McGuire in value…

Darkstone42

He doesn’t have four years of service time, and he’ll have three years of control if he’s kept down in AAA for another month. Hutchison has a home run problem (big surprise, playing the AL East), but he’s a better K/BB pitcher than Locke by a good margin, and his slider is better than any pitch Locke boasts, so no, he’s not a right-handed Jeff Locke, either.

Locke is, at his best, a solid #4 . If Hutchison reaches his ceiling, he’ll be a good #3 . The Jays also handled his development rather poorly, calling him up to the Majors after a total of 31.2 innings in AA. He pitched over 200 ML innings before he reached 20 in AAA. He wasn’t ready yet. Even with elevated HR totals, he’s pitching really well in AAA, finally getting a decent amount of time there to develop. At only almost 26 years old, there’s reason to believe he’s figuring it out, and that he can figure it out further.

OTDLOT18

DS42, whether anyone will admit this or not, we gave up a guy that has been our #1 /2 starter for the past 4 years (a solid 1/2) who has run into issues this year…if he gets it figured out, it will be like us sending toronto another JA Happ and we received in return Toronto’s #6 /7 starter as he has been bounced from their rotation many times over…I would give the pro that has already experienced success at this level far more chances than i would a kid

BallHeadWonder

After we all wipe our tears because we feel we got shafted. I don’t think we did!! Let’s face it Harold was NEVER going to play in Pittsburgh after Polanco signed and Meadows broke out. So sending him off actually helps him!! I wish him the best. He is a nice player and I hope he does well. It gets dicey with Reese. I felt he was starting to come along this year and could breakout next season moving forward, but they felt that Hutch is starting to come along and with 3 seasons of control this could be very beneficial for us if and when he breaks out. This is the hand we have to play out. If Hutch comes up in Sept. and does well, this could be a moot point. So we will see, but we had to get Frankie off the books!! Until NH Loses badly, I can’t hammer the guy!! Plus he has kept us very competitive over the years and that matters to me!!

OTDLOT18

we have been competitive for 3 out of the 8 years he has been at the helm –

michael t

You are joking I assume? Top prospects traded for cash relief has never been a stated goal of the franchise.

BallHeadWonder

You are correct, but our Farm is Deep!!! Harold will never play in Pittsburgh!! Diaz is our catcher with a better bat than Reese!! Plus we signed Frankie a year to long!! So dumping salary is one of those “Tough Decisions” we have to make!!! We got better today!!

OTDLOT18

K, BHW, u r clearly a shill or you love to instigate – we did not get better today….we are over .500 today and will finish under .500 this season and probably next – we have mortgaged off 2 years off of our fantastic outfield and cole…..thats what this equates to

Daniel C

I wouldn’t say we mortgaged 2 years of the future. Liriano was not carrying this team next year and Niese was just horrible. Ramirez would never get consistent at bats and Cervelli was just extended with Diaz at the doorstep.

At first I absolutely hated the trade and I still don’t love it but I’m starting to see the positive side of it. The trade was not Liriano, Reese, and Ramirez for Hutch it was hey we’ll give you 2 solid prospects that are blocked if you eat this giant contract. Hutch was the lottery ticket thrown on top.

Frees up $14 mil next year and if Hutchison works out then icing on the cake.

OTDLOT18

Daniel, do you realize that the Cervelli extension was about Reese McGuire?? Do the math….Diaz will be 28 when Cervelli walks….Reese was the next one up as he would be 24 and seasoned nicely…

OTDLOT18

Daniel, I want you to follow the money trail to next year, please awake me when they respend that money – not gonna happen….NH sez that the org has increased spending every year, FINE….we were at a $105m payroll at the beginning of this year, so we can expect at least a $110-120m payroll for next year?

Daniel C

Also Melancon was most likely leaving so it’s better to get something for him in this market. It’s tough to balance not throwing in the towel on 2016 and preparing for the future

OTDLOT18

when does the future arrive? please wake me for that part as well…

brilemon

Thank you. Just… Thank you. I needed to read something in the middle of the road.

Chris Thomas

Jusy read McGuire is no. 4 and Ramirez no. 5 in the updated bluejays minor league player rankings…just in case everyone wants to feel better.

BallHeadWonder

That should tell you how weak the Blue Jays Farm is!!!

Blaine Huff

Why can’t we downvote comments?

Blaine Huff

This conversation needs NMR…

The Bat Signal is ready, but I can’t seem to find an outlet to plug the cord into…

Joshuatree

I will agree here bc I’m about to join the club w NMR. He was right! I feel like my heart was ripped out of my chest! No wonder he hasn’t been on bc Im about to be right there w him

Mike U

7 Springs getting a new chairlift this winter

gosteelers69

I’m more furious that McGuire was trading than anything else. Terrible! Unless I’m missing something here, McGuire was a good defensive catcher that could be a decent hitter. He’s only 21 and performing pretty good at Altoona.

dr dng

Maybe they did all of this to improve program sales?!?!

tfiely

Wow trade McGuire he should have gotten something better than a throw in with liriano

Darren G

Almost five hours later and still no explanation from the Pirates front office as to why this trade was made. Guess there is no way to spin this one. Better to maintain radio silence.

opieterp

Huntington said that the Liriano trade provides the infamous “financial flexibility” and that McGuire and Ramirez were traded for Hutchinson.

Darren G

No one could possibly believe that McGuire and Ramirez were traded straight up for Hutchinson. I never thought we would see the return of a “Littlefield” style front office but here we are. I am in shock but here we are 🙁

michael t

I really believe something is not right with Nutting. Forcing Huntington to do this prospect sale along with the Melancon and Niese dumps are evidence of trouble.
National writer Joe Sheehan calling for the league to step in.

Daniel C

Do you suggest continuing to pay Niese $$$$ to put up a 5.00 era? The return for Melancon was fair as he is a rental. I’m not a huge fan of the Liriano trade but I don’t think it’s the monstrosity everyone is making it out to be.

OTDLOT18

im suggesting, dont trade walker to begin with to get Niese…why is it shocking that a pitcher that lost his spot in another MLB rotation also stunk it up in ours…..u take the roster that won 98 games last year and you build on it….really, whether or not it was NH’s hand on this stink, he might not have a job somewhere else if he continues this crap

rburgh

What???? OMG!!!!!!

Justin D

Championship teams don’t make deals like this. I understand that in the current MLB climate and the Pittsburgh market that we have to accept (and sometimes more appropriately, just find a way to stomach) the financial constraints the team operates under; however, NH and the current regime have never sacrificed prospects as a means of cutting spending, which is why I have found myself almost always on their side even in the face of harsh criticism. This all changed today, and even if Hutchison somehow successfully falls into the reclamation mold we’re so fond of, this was simply an awful trade based on upside, previous results, and motivation for making the deal

Bruce Humbert

blame Cutch and Frankie – and to some extent J-Hay for digging this hole…
I hate NH – but he had to unload dead money on someone – and two guys who are at least two years away was the price – deal with it!

OTDLOT18

Bruce, you know better than that – this had to be some sorta payroll edict from Nutting and proves that mcclatchy wasnt the demon we all thought….both have nuttings slimy hands all over this and the ARAM fiasco….if it was just about unloading dead money, it coulda been done at the end of the season…this was a panic move, thats why we lost 2 of the MLB top 50 players in addition….fucking awful

Steve Zielinski

I agree. Trading prospects to shed salary is inconsistent with the strategy and tactics the Pirates used since the Nutting Partnership replaced the McClatchy Partnership. The Liriano trade was not a baseball trade. Bringing Nova and Bastardo to the Pirates were insignificant moves. These pitchers only block prospects.

I cannot see how the Pirates could be in a financial mess that would make trades such as these necessary.

OTDLOT18

I still maintain that Nutting was also supremely involved in the ARAM fiasco….he had 2/5 of the board (ogden and himself) when that “trade” was orchestrated…same MO…same crime….same criminal

michael t

You are absolutely correct. The old man could have fixed the problem with the loan covenants but chose not to infuse the cash….and away went Aram

piraddict

I like that NH has more than one play in his playbook. But including Reese McGuire is excessive. I can only guess that their internal evaluations/time line to MLB have other catchers in the system rated higher than Reese.

ScottinMass

Who? Kelly? Krause?
No way.

William S

Ultimately it will have to be viewed in the light of the what they do with the money they’ve saved, but that’s months away. In the meantime, man this is hard to swallow/understand.

opieterp

Have you seen the pitching FA market next year? It stinks. Now we have to less trade chips to make a trade this offseason. Neal is an idiot

Justin D

I’m totally with you, and the thing that makes this even harder is that whenever the Bucs have had a perceived surplus of FA funds to spend, they’ve had an underwhelming return via shopping and instead opted to defer their funds to other means of team-building (i.e., draft spending, international FA spending, taking on salary at the deadline). In my opinion, the only way to make this trade OK is to make a “splash” free agent signing in the upcoming off-season, which also raises a red flag as it’s opposed to the part of my favorable opinion of the Pirates’ FA spending which has been to avoid “splash” free agent signings. Rooting for the Bucs has turned all of our eyes to the long-term, but this one looks as ugly as I can remember

William S

Exactly. I look at it like I would investing – the old Buffett mantra of “sell when others are greedy, buy when others are fearful.” It’s all a team with finite resources can do – there’s no room for error with a big contract bust. I haven’t looked at the next FA class closely enough to determine whether a splash signing is even doable, but I’d hate to see them deviate that way; especially if it means poorer depth then they had this year. As lousy as this season turned out, where would they have been without Freese, Joyce, Feliz and SRod? I’d actually like to see if they could lock up Feliz for a couple of years.

freddylang

The money they paid liriano and Niese this year makes happ look really cheap.

William S

Yeah, the Happ decision is looking really lousy now.

rich

I think the single worst thing that NH did in the offseason was to not ‘match’ the offer Happ got. I think he started the year a little (few million) under budget. He could then have traded Walker for a prospect. That would have put us a few million over

ScottinMass

So the Pirates have been playing anyone capable of wearing catching gear this year, but dealt from an “area of strength” according to NH. We’re really supposed to believe that. God bless the Toronto fan base, they must be ecstatic.

michael t

They can’t believe it, were posting positive reports when they thought it was only Ramirez. Story coming out is their GM held out until final seconds to get McGuire.
Makes me think Nutting ordered Huntington to dump all of the Liriano salary.

buccotime57

What will happen to all the liriano bobbleheads were they included in the deal?

PieRat

I kept wondering when the other shoe would drop. I thought we were getting a top prospect as well. So, this is how they pay for signing Letiano to a bad deal. They would have been better to eat the contract or put him on waivers to see if anyone was desparate enough to take him.

Roberrto21

Why include McGuire in this transaction? Seems insane unless they were sure he’ll never ever hit. He’s 21. Are they sure? Incomprehensible!!!

William S

I’ve had no issue with the moves up until this one. Unless 4-5 players suddenly started playing to potential (including Liriano) this team was going nowhere meaningful this year. As if to prove it, they get swept by the “easy part of the schedule” that was supposed to allow them to make up ground (and that includes a loss Friday, before the MM trade). The culprit was the all-or-none offense that couldn’t manage to score against a couple of 5+ ERA pitchers.
It leads me to believe there’s more to the story with Liriano; otherwise, it would make sense to see if he can right the ship and then trade him in the offseason (and potentially use McGuire/Ramirez for other help if so inclined). Liriano was supposedly being shopped over the past few weeks….were there no takers at all? Was this the best that could be done? Would it have made sense to pay some of the salary rather than give up both prospects? I’m keen to understand what the rush was, unless they’d lost all hope with Liriano and/or they didn’t feel the potential of the two prospects was worth the ‘x’ million in salary coverage it would take to keep one/them.
As for the ARam comparisons, they don’t seem apt. The league required the Pirates to reduce financial commitments due to debt covenants. They would have traded Benson if he didn’t develop arm issues right at that time.

OTDLOT18

Agree with the Liriano mess…why didnt they send some money to keep those prospects? where we stray is that you do not understand the debt covenants that were in place at that time…ownership would have faced a fine – thats it – pure and simple…fact is, this ownership treats baseball as if it were a regular business and it is not…..u think steinbrenner was making money during his $200m payrolls with a 100% luxury tax? NO….he was a winner and if that meant dipping into his pockets to make things happen, thats what happened…..i guarantee you that the Nuttings have not placed 1 single penny extra into the Pirates even though they bought the team for like $25m and it is worth between $750-$900m today – that is the business, it is all in the franchise value

Joeb1288

Why all this whining… Combined 3 home runs at Altoona?. Pirates just dumped a $13m mess… These threads need to be about Hurdle and his deplorable managing of a roster and inexplicable love affair with JaHa and Cutch….

OTDLOT18

hey, if that $13m was split amongst the season ticket holders, id b all for it – and I agree that jaso needs benched/released and cutch needs moved down in the order….it flabbergasts me that this team cannot even jettison an $8m contract like Jaso’s..failed experiment, lets move on…..

William S

Liriano of 2013 – 2015 is worth the $13 million, so my bigger issue is the timing, selling low which Huntington never likes to do. If the season isn’t going anywhere, why not continue to try and resurrect that old value? It just feels like there’s more to the story. I suspect the biggest gripe with the prospects is not using them to get something (the “get” in this case is payroll room, but that’s nebulous and means waiting to see what they do with it). Clearly these prospects weren’t going to land Chris Archer, but….
And yeah, time to move Cutch down in the order……there’s reputation and then there’s performance. It’s okay to give benefit of the doubt for awhile, but I think this is long enough.

michael t

This is so much worse than the ARAM gift to the Cubs. The Pirates were not forced to do this. In return for cash relief and a mediocre AAA pitcher, they gave up two top prospects and a guy they greatly valued when they signed him(who was one game removed from an outstanding outing).
This was not a trade. The Pirates dumped a starting pitcher, his salary and prospects for financial concerns. In the best interest of baseball…I think not. In the best interest of the Pittsburgh Pirates….hell no. Is it in the best short term financial interests of the owner…..absolutely.

rich

The 2016 savings are really not that big and I don’t believe it is really the cause of this activity
– The Liriano/Hutch swap saves only $3.8 million
– Nova costs us $1.4.
– Niese/Bastardo swap saves $1.2
So about $3.6 million?

OTDLOT18

liriano is closer to $20m…had another $14m owed to him next year and the Nova one we still dont know the cost there….im very worried since it is two PTBNL and the yanks are in need of a catcher – as it stands, (without knowing the nova damage yet), already over $20m

William S

I agree; I find the timing/rush very confusing.

PikeBishop65

Man, one of the great “what ifs” I Pirate history. The chronically underwhelming Benson on the DL when MLB called and said, “Dump Salary Now”

William S

Seriously. Of course the real mistake came earlier, when they failed to protect Joe Randa in the expansion draft and the Diamondbacks selected him. Failed to protect him not once, not twice, but three times. Perfectly serviceable 3rd baseman gone, have to bring Aram up at 19 or 20, burns through service time developing, etc, etc. As a lifelong Pirates fan born and raised in Chicago (dad raised me well) it was painful to watch what he became. Not to mention listening to the annoying Cubs fans (there are no other kind) talk about the “rip off trade” without understanding any of the background.

OTDLOT18

I know…those ‘thank you’ signs the fans would proudly display is what makes me hate and loathe the cubs even more than the braves….

Arik Florimonte

And Hutchison is a decent value. Unlike what they got for ARam.

William S

Hopefully they can get him productive enough to justify going through arbitration….

juniorkrz

Here’s what JJ Cooper of BA had to say about this deal: “Yeah, this Pirates salary dump is not going to go over well.”

Boy did he hit the nail on the head. It’s a dark day in the Burgh.

SufferinBuccotash

All Jonathan Mayo said on MLB Network was “I’m still trying to wrap my head around this one.”

bucsws2014

Tim,
Serious question… in your business plan, for your SWOT analysis, did you list one of the Threats being that the Pirates revert back to being a cheap-ass craphole team with a declining fanbase? Logically, less interest in the Pirates would mean less interest in the Pirates farm system, thus declining subscription revenues.

I can understand if you didn’t include that possibility. But you might want to consider it if there’s not a serious influx of talent in 2017. Today has tried the patience of many.

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