Pirates Discussion: Can Roansy Contreras Prevent the Losing Streak From Reaching Ten?

After losing both games of a double-header against St. Louis yesterday, the Pittsburgh Pirates have extended their losing streak to nine games.

The Pirates take on the Cardinals for one final game today at 7:45 PM EST.

Roansy Contreras will take the mound, looking to bounce back after giving up three earned runs on eight hits in 4.2 innings last time.

The Pirates have been swept in the last week by the Tigers over two games, and the Braves in four. A loss today would give them a four game sweep against the Cardinals.

Use the comments below to discuss the big league club and today’s game. We will add lineups to this post when they are available.

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jon6er

Shelton’s post game was another gag fest with him talking about “teaching moment’s”. I’m still not sure what his teaching moments are. As far as pitching goes in 2021 it was hide the Rule 5 guy and in 2022 you bring up a AAA closer with good numbers and experience in the role and you bury him in a mop up role. I’m not claiming without proof that Yerry can fill a late game role but he’s not getting the chance on a team with a very suspect bullpen with the exception of two or three guys. Put the kid in those situations and if he can’t handle it send him down to work on it like any other kid.

Wilbur Miller

Just looked at the ninth inning on gameday. Bednar’s pitches were roughly evenly divided between 78 mph curves, 90 mph splitters and 96-97 mph FBs. I’m not sure I can think of a closer with an arsenal like that, much less in his third inning.

NMR

Chapman-lite, except with deuces instead of sliders.

jon6er

I started thinking he was throwing the 76-78 mph curves to save his arm for the ninth but then he dazzled them with it in the ninth mixing in the splitters and his heat. It almost looks like he calls his own pitches.

Mblee24

Here comes a 9 game winning streak! Cruz coming up this weekend to fuel the streak!

jon6er

I’m in for that.

jtkuch

Am I crazy for thinking that Bednar is even more important to lock up long term than Reynolds?

NMR

You already have him through his age-32 season, and even getting six consistently good and healthy years out of a reliever is almost unheard.

No reason to push your luck.

phieralph

Put it this way. We traded All Star Rich Rod last year for prospect returns. Honestly, I don’t even remember for who. Today, Rich Rod is a free agent. Why? I don’t know. But I can’t help but think it shows the value of closers.

However, Bednar is the hometown kid.

roibert.kasperski

Rich Rod is still a FA because he is no longer anywhere near what he was prior to last year. He basically fell off the cliff after June of last year. We got Bryse Wilson and Ricky DiVito for him. Wilson is Wilson. DiVito is coming off of an Ulner nerve injury that shelved him most of last year. He was the headliner of the return for Rich Rod. Was great prior to the injury. Remains to be seen if he will recapture that or not.

1979andCounting

And he got an 80-game suspension for PEDs. He’ll be eligible by the end of the month! Maybe take a flyer on him with an Milb deal.

roibert.kasperski

Plum forgot about that suspension.

tom2125

Rich rod isn’t in the same league as Bednar. Your talking about a guy who throw 90% fastballs who hit 94 mph vs a guy who has an elite fastball, above average splitter and a decent curve. Cmon now…

Wilbur Miller

Not entirely, although at some point they’re liable to do to him what Lloyd McClendon did to Matt Capps. It’s amazing that he can do this stuff, but the fact that this seems to be the only way they can win a game just highlights how badly they need to find some other relievers who can shut down rallies. A bullpen of Bednar and a bunch of mostly sub-replacement middle relievers isn’t viable.

jon6er

Yeah if they only had a young 24 yo reliever with good stuff to audition in these situations instead of wash, rinse and repeat with guys like Banda, Stratton and Hembree.

Mtgj

You mean someone like clay Holmes?

I know Diego Castillo has shown flashes and looks like he could be a very good utility player on good pirates teams in the coming years, but this team has lost 7-10 games in the 7th and 8th inning. If they had clay Holmes to pair with bednar in the late innings their record would be a lot better.

I didn’t like trading Holmes last year as he was starting g to look like a guy that was figuring things out. I hope BC starts to put better bullpens together. Huntington always seemed to have great bullpens.

phieralph

tedwins

Tip of the cap to Mr. Bednar and our buccos team👏👏

b mcferren

raise it!

phieralph

Lol, we should just make Bednar a starter.

tedwins

🤣

tedwins

Sounds like, from cards feed im watching, that Bednar pitching the 9th

jon6er

You would think Shelton’s job is on the line since he’s willing to try and win a game for a change and abuse his best reliever in the process, lol.

tedwins

I was surprised that Bednar has pitched two innings 10 times, not making an opinion, just more than i thought

jon6er

Has led to more wins but is not sustainable to the longevity of a potential elite reliever. I would use him like that if my team was in the middle of a pennant race and Nutting was the owner because you know he ain’t springing for help.

jon6er

and probably the Pirates best trade chip

joebaseball

Where is the Crow GIF?

joebaseball

Nevermind

joebaseball

Bednar GIF??

roibert.kasperski

Was talking to my son. He is out of state now….I missed it my bad…….
Happy Belated Crowe Day y’all!!!

![]comment image)_

Wilbur Miller

2021 Reynolds lives!!

jon6er

“Live long and prosper” I hope, lol.

roibert.kasperski

Wham! A Homer!!

tedwins

Great at bat👏👏

Wilbur Miller

Seems like anybody Dumbo puts in the cleanup spot becomes a huge drag on the offense. First Yoshi, now Vogelbach, whose OPS is now below .700.

jon6er

Matt Gorski, 6’4 and very athletic probably be a very good first baseman.
Blake Sabol 6’4 and very athletic, probably be a very good first baseman.

jedeweese

Yep (see my musings on Tim’s off-day thread from this morning). I still am betting on Martin at 1st, but Gorski, Triolo, and Sabol all intrigue me. Chavis get a lot of negtive attention, but he has handled 1st better than adequately, but he is not a sustainable option.

Mblee24

Or why not bring up Gorski to play first and sabol to catch?? Not like they can do any worse than guys like Chang, park, Heinemen ir Perez.

Last edited 19 days ago by Mblee24
jon6er

We just don’t see the big picture, lol!

bucsws2014

JHC Smith-Njigba is having a bad intro to MLB.

capirate

I think the losing streak is my fault. I signed up for an MLB account to watch the Pirates before the Detroit series. The Pirates have not won since!

b mcferren

what the hell?

jon6er

We just have to accept the losing and enjoy watching the young guys doing their on the job training.

capirate

I was glad to see one of the young guys break up the no-hitter last night.

roibert.kasperski

You jinx!!!

jon6er

Me too. Looks like Cal’s only real weakness is his arm.

Wilbur Miller

Including the one he puts the glove on.

jon6er

So he’s amphibious…..

bucsws2014

Is Smith-Njigba really an OF?

jon6er

Looks like maybe a first baseman to me!

jon6er

CSN has to catch that ball.

Wilbur Miller

There’s been some sort of strange transference here.

jon6er

Their back……

jon6er

The different uniforms help, lol.

Colin

Cal, hell of an AB

Colin

B-Rey with the triple! Get Ro an early lead

Colin

Atleast Tucu made him throw some pitches

1979andCounting

Flaherty should be on a 75 pitch limit……let’s work some long ABs and get to their weaker BP pitchers. Someone other than Gallegos, Cabrera, Helsley.

jon6er

Sadly a 75 pitch limit could get him easily to the 6th or 7th inning against the Buc’s lineup.

Wilbur Miller

Just looking at the standings and . . . holy crap . . . as bad as the Pirates are, they’ve got lots of company. With a .393 winning percentage, they’re still only the fourth worst team in the NL. They’re tied with Det for sixth worst in MLB.

Of course, they’re probably a lot worst than their record, which is partly why they seem so terrible. By pythag, they’re tied with Det for worst in MLB. Bednar and Crowe are probably going to cost them a top two draft pick.

ArkyWags

I would say though, that two of the six or seven teams worse than the Pirates were either expecting to contend (Detroit) or expecting to take a step forward with their internal young players (KC). I’d also say that Washington is a team that was about to rebuild after they won a WS, so that’s at least a cyclical issue.

PiratePrimate

There’s a lot of bad baseball being played. Especially among the half-dozen teams whose owners don’t care if they win or lose as long as they can pocket the profit sharing.

Bucs'N'Pucks (Jeff Reed)

Good thing it’s a lottery this year!

1979andCounting

Couple of takeaways from last night’s game, (since that thread has disappeared from the site……suggestion to Tim to keep prior days article up the following day rather than burying it on the site):

  • Reynolds got burnt playing so dam deep on a routine shallow fly ball…….didn’t BC state they were going to address this?
  • Brownie was over-the-top harping about Mikolas’ pitch count starting in the 7th inning.

It’s not your concern Greg. Geesh. Let the Cardinals announcers strategize over
that.

  • Tommy Edman reminds me of Adam Frazier……really nice below-the-radar player.
  • Happy to see Smith-Njigba up. But that was a very catchable pop up he missed along the LF line……come on, it was not that difficult for an OFer!
  • Is Derrick going to actually consider an Intentional Walk today of Goldy? In a

clutch situation, it’s basic manager 101. Hope he does so to help Roansy or bullpen in crucial situation but I doubt it…….he’s not playing to win.

  • Kudos to St. Louis official scorer. Yepez misplaying a fly ball was an E-7. So many scorers rule double.
  • These trade pieces that BC picked up for our star players seem to be Replacement level…..Castillo, Jack, Park, Crowe, Wilson, Tucu, Smith-Njigba, Yajure. I know, it’s too early to be sure. Jack and Tucu maybe. Bednar and Roansy are the exceptions.
  • The routine double play balls have to stop! Just crush an offense.
1979andCounting

I forgot my worst take-away that I was pissed about…..putting Bednar in the 9th inning of a blow-out That’s terrible managing by DS…….laughable.

ArkyWags

That’s a really weird thing to be your worst takeaway. Bednar had pitched once in the previous nine days. It was clearly to get him some work.

Or do you think the Bucs are gonna go on some long winning streak that’s now in jeopardy because Bednar pitched in that game yesterday?

1979andCounting

It’s the worst because it recognizes we are in a 9 game losing streak and our AS closer can’t get in a game to even attempt a save. And Bednar seemed to be frustrated being out there as well. It’s an embarrassment to him and to the 8 other guys out on the field with him that our closer is brought into a 9 – 1 game. He surely can get some work in the bullpen away from the spotlight of a capacity filled stadium where our best pitcher is brought in……..yeah as I type this there’s nothing weird about being pissed at this. Bad bad look by Shelton, and on Marin for not stopping it.

ArkyWags

Yes let’s have our best pitcher work less. Good plan.

tom2125

What star players did we give up? I don’t remember giving any big names for several years…

1979andCounting

I LOL’ed at that question! But yeah we had Marte, Bell was an All Star, Musgrove, Rich Rod was an AS, Frazier was an AS.

ArkyWags

The last two were all stars because the Bucs had to have one. Some of those guys are solid players but nothing more.

tom2125

The “prospects” you mentioned were not involved for the Marte, Musgrove, Bell trades.

Adam Frazier was just a one half wonder… Same with Josh Bell. I guess we have different definitions of star players.

Marte was an above average player for sure at the time of the deal.

PirateRican21

Burrows promoted to AAA.

jon6er

That’s good news and I like it a lot but coming on the heels of probably his worst outing this season I almost want to believe the shellacking of the Pirates during this losing streak is possibly waking management up. But as we’ll probably see again tonight with Roansy is you also need offense to win games.

AdministrativeSky236

Hoping for an end of season cup of coffee like roansy!

jedeweese

Burrows, then Priester….the gang is building.

gosteelers69

Yesterday was another reality check. This is a very bad team. There’s no getting around it. The only positive for this season is letting the youth movement begin. But we are still a long way from turning all of this around. And a lousy overall performance yesterday from our farm system didn’t help things either.

On another note, why is Hayes always so highly regarded? Is it because this is how low we are as a fan base? I honestly don’t see a star player at all. I see a good glove and an average player playing at a position that demands power and run production. He brings none of that. And yet this franchise views him as their cornerstone/franchise player.

I’ll step off the ledge. Yesterday really got to me.

ArkyWags

Fully agree with this, with the exception of the Hayes stuff. He’s not a conventional 3B, with power. But he’s a solid hitter with a phenomenal glove. Good players come in all shapes and sizes, and run prevention is equally important.

Danatural08

GM BC accidentally stumbles into the Cardinals GM office….

GMBC: What are you guys doing in here?
STLGM: We’re trying to win baseball games here, you don’t want any of this shit.
GMBC:

jedeweese

Actually, I give BC full support…he is going to have to hit on some starter trades though. No one is going to hit 100% on trades (and HONESTLY, did anyone see Holmes doing this?)

NMR

Literally everyone – fans, media, even the damn club – identified Clay Holmes as by far the most likely to benefit from better player development.

NMR

gold!

Catch_22

Former Pirates traded by Ben…

1b – Josh Bell 1.1fWAR in 63 games
2b – Adam Frazier 0.7 in 61 games
SP – Joe Musgrove 2.1 in 11 starts
SP – Jameson Taillon 1.7 in 12 starts
SP – Chad Kuhl 0.8 in 11 starts
RP – Clay Holmes 1.1 in 28 games

I’m sure I’m missing some players, but why not build around that with Hayes and Reynolds? Matt Arnold would probably have this team in contention by now.

mikeschalke

Because it would cost $$$$$$ to keep them.

Bucs'N'Pucks (Jeff Reed)

Marte 1.1 fWAR

But what’s more mind numbing, is the fact we’re essentially left to fawn over 2-3 fWAR players, cause they can’t even acquire/develop that!

Fan desperation has been at peak level for quite some time. I remember arguing with Bob Pompeani last year when he and many others were table pounding for Will Craig cause he hit a HR in consecutive games for Indy. Even though anyone who just looked at his basic numbers over his career should be able to assess, he wasn’t that good. Or the fact Pirates Twitter was ready to call Marcano a “power” hitter after 2 games in LA. When since then, he’s been almost exactly to my expectations. His numbers, metrics, are brutal since then. He’s basically the same hitter he was prior to his Altoona breakout.

At this point, it’s as if their only hope is guys who were essentially already good, continue to be as they climb. The fact they hired a failed hitting coach from a club that fired him cause they were consecutively getting worse, and now the Pirates have managed to actually be worse than last year. I’m basically at the same point of I trust the scouts to find talent, and to a degree the minor league staff, but I have no faith at the big league level.

tedwins

The Musgrove trade was tough on me, rising at the time, seemed to epitomize Pgh, cost controlled for 2 more yrs….but im being a POS for implying I knew he would become this monster ace, i didnt… just saying Joe was seemingly a great guy and had real value… we did fine, but lost that trade, imho

NMR

I never thought he’d end up being this healthy, but the arm action change absolutely turned him into a star.

It’s incredible to me that Huntington acquired and developed a top 30 bat and top 30 starter in baseball over his last few years and absolutely nobody talks about it.

Imagine if the Pirates traded a marginal reliever to Houston and they turned him into a 4 WAR starter?

tedwins

Just a goofy comment, having fun, you can almost imagine our cost controlled future team are leftovers from NH 3 yrs later…. 3B Hayes, SS Cruz, 2B Bae, 1B Martin then Mitchell in RF, Reynolds in CF… then the phalanx of guys from Marte, Stallings, Frazier, taillion, Bell, Musgrove trades… im not sure i have a point, tired, going to bed🤣🤣🤣🤣

Last edited 20 days ago by tedwins
roibert.kasperski

To early to say who won the Musgrove trade. Musgrove would be heading to FA after this season and highly doubt he would have extended considering how he was pitching. Got Bednar who is great and 4 prospects led by Endy Rodriguez. Could turn out to be a great deal for the Pirates yet. Maybe not. No way to know yet. We would have had to have known that the DH was going to come permanently to the NL to keep Bell. Frazier had his career year and is now average in Seattle. I Like Tuku and Suwinski better than Frazier right now. I like the Taillon deal as well Jameson will be a FA after this season as well. A long term deal will be risky for any team because of his injury history. I like that we got Roansy for him along with CSN and Yahure who both could be very good players for the Bucs. Kuhl was just as good with the Bucs when healthy but never was healthy for long stretches. I don’t think anyone thought that Holmes would be as dominant as he has been. He had such stretches with the Bucs too but then would have a real clunker and be inconsistent for short time the settle back in. He just never had clunker yet with the Yanks.

NMR

Josh Bell is a starting first baseman currently posting 2 defensive runs saved.

This is a whole lotta cope my friend.

roibert.kasperski

oops! Did not realize he was the everyday guy at 1b and not butchering it. Shocking! Wonder if his BA and OPS will hold or if he will have a big drop off in the 2nd half like he did in 2019. Hope he can keep his numbers where they are now and not drop of the 2nd half as he is heading to FA as well.

tedwins

Woah mate 😆… I just commented on the Musgrove trade… 🤣🤣….yeah, the yrs of control stuff, yeah Bednar seems/is special, and yeah maybe those other guys will do something… I agree add up the WAR at the end and measure….but what a starting pitcher, ace, can do for a team is special, so hard to find,….

roibert.kasperski

Was replying to both you and @Catch_22 at the same time 🙂 I agree that Musgrove was a loss for the Bucs but I feel that he would be gone after this season anyway. He will be entering into his year 30 season and I were him, I would not be extending with any team at the moment. The Padres could offer something outlandish but the Bucs never could. I don’t think he ever would have extended here considering he could hit the massive lottery in FA. I a weighing that against Bednar, Endy and the others. Depending on the others could turn out that it was a good deal for the Bucs considering he would most likely be gone after this year anyway.

b mcferren

hypothetically, is the best starting pitcher in the league worth the same in trade value as the best reliever in the league?

If the best starter is worth more, then how much more? Head, Endy, Omar and Brian Fellows?

Early results are in, but I hold out hope that we won that trade. if anything, it seems a wash and both teams (and hometown Musgrove) won out big time

Last edited 20 days ago by b mcferren
tedwins

Yeah mate, best starting pitcher trumps best reliever big time…. good news, probably u meant to say this is that atleast Bednar is cost controlled, so yeah, we did fine👍👍

b mcferren
roibert.kasperski

Loved that character. Have not watched SNL since Tracy Morgan left,.

Wilbur Miller

Don’t have the patience to type this out, so the aggregate fWAR of all players acquired by GMBS:

Hitters: 0.9
Pitchers: 2.7

Danatural08

guessing most of that is Bednar

Wilbur Miller

The bulk of it is two guys: Bednar (1.0) and Quintana (0.9), who of course won’t be around long.

Bednar is 19th in all MLB in win probability added. He’s at 1.49. The rest of the staff combined is -3.71.

Catch_22

Man, is that depressing…the list above you has 7.5 fWAR for departing players
Are you factoring in negative fWAR? He’s got the market cornered on those guys

Last edited 20 days ago by Catch_22
b mcferren

ready to trade Chavis to the Braves yesterday

Catch_22

Tommy F Edman is worth 3.2 fWAR in 62 games. Think about that for a minute and he’s now their starting SS!!! Cardinals have a knack for finding these under the radar college bats and developing them into high end major leaguers. They get guys like Edman and supplement that with Goldy and Arenando.

That’s how you run a franchise

Last edited 20 days ago by Catch_22
NMR

What’s curious about them, and maybe baseball in general, is that they churn and burn through the guys you’re talking about. None of these dudes end up being long-term fixtures.

Matt Adams, Tommy Pham, Paul DeJong, Jed Gyorko, Jose Martinez, Tyler Oneil; even higher-end dudes like Kolten Wong and Marcell Ozuna. All good for a handful of seasons and then dropped or pushed out. Current versions in Harrison Bader and Tommy Edman and Brendan Donovan.

Matt Carpenter might be the only dude over the last decade who’s actually been developed internally and succeeded for an extended period.

This idea that you spend all this time developing a “core” that you can then just sit back and ride for half a decade doesn’t really exist in reality.

Catch_22

You’re right, other than the good ‘ol boys club (Waino, Yadi, Pujols) they just churn through players

roibert.kasperski

I always have respected the Cards for how they do business. Wainwright, Molina, and Carpenter are their exceptions to their usual mode of operation like you describe They never spend huge money to keep a FA. Even when the trade for a good player they never break the bank to keep that player even though he played very well for them ie Heyward. A lot of people could not believe that they did not make more of an effort to keep him. The Cubs now wish that they would have too. I wish the Bucs could find a way to get into the groove that the Cards are in and get a solid stocked farm base to work from and keep the cupboards filled as you win in the bigs and keep rotating the pieces with new younger guys that can help you for a couple of years and the use them to keep the process going. People point the Rays but to me the Cards are the masters of keeping the machine rolling year in and year out. A lot of fans of many teams would love to have their teams do business like the Cards.

1979andCounting

Most seasoned baseball people recognize St. Louis as the summa cum laude baseball town in America. Best fan base, most knowledgeable fan base. So the bar is set really high for an owner and GM to perform. In Pittsburgh……very low bar, no expectations of this owner. Although we do have a helluva fan base.

Catch_22

I never understood *best fanbase*

Who declared them the best fanbase? Was there a contest? Is it because the fans all wear red? Is it because how long they do standing ovations? To me, it’s subjective bs.

Also the *most knowledgeable fans* Was there a quiz?

Wilbur Miller

Exhibit A

morans.png
PiratePrimate

Missouri education

roibert.kasperski

Bet he has no ragrets either !

1979andCounting

Sure it’s subjective to an extent. But they don’t have an NFL team, and they consistently put up 3 mil in attendance. There’s is a baseball town. It is not subjective that they turn out and support their team, for a rather small market team. That’s how they’ve earned the reputation.

tedwins

Kinda related, I notice Wacha is still younger and better than I thought…🤷‍♂️

Catch_22

I could watch Mikolas pitch all day. Great mound presence, nice old school look with the high socks and stash. He was just flipping that curve in and even getting lefties to flinch. Seems like a dude you’d want to have beers with. Not exactly sure how Bader misplayed that 27th out, he’s one of the best in baseball out there and I’m sure that will stick with him for quite awhile.

roibert.kasperski

Hopefully, the 129 pitches does not affect him much. He has had some arm issues. Hope for his sake he can keep on keepin on. I respect guys like him that keep chugging along and eventually able to put it all together. Went through a lot to finally make it in St Louis.

1979andCounting

Found it interesting, but very understandable with a 9 – 1 lead, that Marmol and Maddux had no one warming up until he allowed the double. I remember A J Burnett would get pissed at Hurdle when he would see guys warming up in the 5th inning as soon as he allowed a base runner! There is a psychology Marmol used there……it’s your game Miles! It’s ALL yours.

NMR

Lance Lynn’s my favorite pitcher in baseball for the same reason (except for pumping fastballs like 90% of the time), right on.

roibert.kasperski

Bader was 3-4 steps in too much. Their outfield usually does play in some because they all seem to be able to go back and get balls hit deeper. If he was back a couple of steps Mikolas has his no hitter.

Catch_22

I could be wrong, but I thought he initially went in and read it wrong off the bat. I think it was hit right at him with good velo and backspin. Those ones hit hard right at you are the toughest to read

roibert.kasperski

I could not tell you. I was just happy that for once neither he nor anyone else in that outfield ran down a liner that would have dropped against most other teams. That would explain not getting back in time. Their OF mostly play a little shallower to cut of the short flares because the have the speed to go get the deeper ones. McCutcheon used to do that in his younger days a lot. Did not really pay attention to what Bader was doing as at first I assumed that he was just going to run it down….again.

b mcferren

agreed – – – impossible to differentiate hime from any guy on an American Caramel

he truly is the one that got away

Wilbur Miller

From the Department of Delusion:

Derek Shelton: “Up until today, we had actually played pretty good baseball. Today, we got handled a little bit.”

and

Bryse Wilson: “I thought I did a pretty good job of throwing strikes, getting ahead and commanding counts. They’re good hitters. They just hit some really good pitches.”

b mcferren

#KendallForManager

jedeweese

I lost it on Bryce’s comments –> unbelievable.
Shelton has lost me. Officially.

roibert.kasperski

Happy Ro Day Y’all!!

RAS TN

NO…The march to oblivion continues…

AdministrativeSky236

Ive been reading about the pitch clock used in the minors, and it seems like it is similar to the electronic strike zone and banning shifts as it is likely just a matter of time. In the minors, they are currently limiting pitcher pickoffs to 2 per batter plus the bases are a few inches bigger. In my opinion, and as backed up by the minors’s stats, this hugely shifts an advantage back towards the runner in base stealing scenarios. In my opinion, this could really be the next ‘advantage’ to exploit at the major league level. I see a time coming where infield defense and speed are both prioritized once again when they have both been losing importance. As much as I hate to say it, someone like Bae could become significantly more valuable as someone who can use these changes as a benefit for our club

John Fluharty

Would love to see this happen.

tedwins

Why do you hate to say Bae will be more “valuable”, he is already a rising star prospect for us, publications will catch up soon as well, imho…

AdministrativeSky236

Im sure they will, but even beyond prospect rankings, I see his future value as a major leaguer increasing. He has plus plus speed and has shown good ability to swipe a bag even in an environment that has shifted away from the base stealer. Plus, this speed I assume would translate to plus range, so if the momentum swings back towards the base runner and only having two infielders on the same half of the field, both of these traits/skills will go from being undervalued to very valuable.

tedwins

Again, this doesnt explain why you said…….

“As much as I hate to say it, someone like Bae could become significantly more valuable”,……….

but i dont care to discuss and question further, not important👍

AdministrativeSky236

Oops sorry i misunderstood! Will not bore with another long response, but i just have some personal issues with Bae’s past off the baseball field. Will not open that can of worms though!

tedwins

Ahhhh, drive by stuff👎👎👎

Bucs'N'Pucks (Jeff Reed)

#TankForCrews

skliesen

I expect Roansy to pitch well enough to win tonight, as long as he doesn’t give in to Goldschmidt that is. Dude is locked in right now.

However, I’m skeptical we’ll score enough runs. Our bats, except for Reynolds seem to be in power save mode.

ArkyWags

Back in early May when they lost two of three at Cincinnati. That put the Bucs at 11-16, and the Reds at 5-23, 6.5 behind Pgh. I still felt this Pirates team was awful, much worse than the Reds and would be behind Cincinnati by the end of June.

It certainly looks like I expected too much out of the Pirates, even with that prediction. The worst run differential in baseball, tied for the sixth worst record, and only four games “out” of the worst in baseball. This team and organization is awful.

skliesen

Most definitely a bad stretch the last 10 days or so, but there’s still a few bright spots. Good SP for most part. Reynolds is heating up. Cruz won minor league player of week on P2.

Just remember it’s always darkest before the dawn.

ArkyWags

It is good Reynolds is heating up. And Cruz will likely be up, which helps. Actually, as bad as the offense has been (29th in runs), I’m more optimistic on the immediate future there than pitching.

I’m not sure I’d categorize the pitching as anything other than bad. I guess it’s not awful but: 25th in ERA, 22nd in K’s, 25th in walks, etc. Not only that, I’m not sure I see any long term pieces up here other than Ro.

TNBucs

I agree that there are positive signs in terms of big picture. Other than when Wilson starts, the pitching has been competent. The position players show potential but lack consistency which is what we should expect. When you have too many guys lacking consistency, though, it gets tough to put together winning streaks.

That said, I remain very skeptical that we have the right major league coaches to see the rebuild through to a successful major league team. When we lose, Shelton simply cites lack of execution as if there’s no role for coaches to help players get better or put them in optimal positions to succeed.

Given that the 9-game losing streak has destroyed any dreams of the team staying on the edge of the race this year, my ideal outcome is that we keep seeing signs of potential from the rookies but enough fiascos on the field that Cherington decides to move on from Shelton and his staff. Then I think we can see big things next year.

Bucs'N'Pucks (Jeff Reed)

That’s how I’m feeling. Only question I’m debating is if it has to be Ben and the MLB staff, or just the MLB staff.

Last edited 19 days ago by Bucs'N'Pucks (Jeff Reed)
ArkyWags

Can I ask how the pitching is competent? When they’re bottom third in almost every category? Is it because we expected to be a dumpster fire and it’s only a tire fire? I guess that’s competent by the narrowest of definitions, but Christ is that a low bar.

Last edited 20 days ago by ArkyWags
Wilbur Miller

I look at it this way — In three years, they’ve come with one starter in Roansy who’s clearly a long-term piece of the puzzle and one other in Thompson who’s got a good shot. For relievers, Bednar and maybe Crowe. Can’t say anything about Yerry yet because Dumbo won’t even use him. Four pitchers, for a rebuilding team, in three years.

TNBucs

It is a concern that we’ve let better pitchers go than we’ve been able to add. I place most blame on Nutting, but I do wonder if Cherington and Shelton and staff are very good at evaluating talent. As exciting as Contreras is and as good as Bednar has been, it seems that we should have more talent given the quality we traded away.

Catch_22

Now tell us all about the hitters, young guys in particular.

PS – They fucking blow too. Except for Huntington leftovers in Hayes and Reynolds.

Wilbur Miller

This FO has done an even worse job with the hitters. They have yet to come up with a single everyday player beyond the ones they inherited. By the end of the year Suwinski may qualify, but not yet.

Of course, the difference is that the younger players figure to improve. The older players are what they are, varying from AAA players, if even that, to guys who at most are bench players on a competitive team. But on the Pirates, a bench player on a competitive team is a lineup mainstay who bats 4th or 5th every day.

Catch_22

If the young player is good, then yes, he can improve. But, if the young player isn’t good he won’t improve.

agent00

meh. even hayes isn’t that good of a hitter

Catch_22

Objectively speaking he’s 8% better than league average as a hitter

ArkyWags

Right. He’s still better than league average (primarily through OBP/avg than power). I’d love for him to take the leap and become a five-six win type player I think he’s capable of. But if he doesn’t change and this is what he is long term it’s a fringe all star and that’s not a problem.

Edit: actually, thanks his outstanding glove and slightly above average bat, Hayes is on pace for a five win season as is. If he manages to tap into more power, he’d be really special.

Last edited 20 days ago by ArkyWags
agent00

yes i’m aware. for a franchise cornerstone player…dunno. i guess i’m looking for a bit more than that.

at least he provides tons of value through his defense!

Catch_22

Having a 5 win player is a nice cornerstone. You just need someone competent to manage the rest of the roster

agent00

yeah. i’m more worried about development and the gm, rather than shelton

Catch_22

Yeah, Shelton isn’t the problem. Talent is the problem and that starts at the top

tedwins

WAR loves Hayes, nothing to do with ur comment, just noticing on FG and BR🤔

roberto

Is four good, bad or just OK?

tedwins

Good if your focussed on 01-01 in 2023 draft👍

TNBucs

It’s primarily the starters, as AS236 says. Keller has looked better, Brubaker shows signs of being able to dominate for stretches, Thompson looks like at least a solid back-of-the-rotation starter, Contreras is Contreras, Crowe has been mostly good, Bednar is Bednar…that’s enough to build on.

Yesterday’s performances by Burrows and Priester were pretty disappointing, but if they’re just blips in their development, then we might imagine a pretty good rotation as soon as next year.

ArkyWags

Keller has had moments of competency before in his career and regresses back to terribleness. We need to see it for more than (checks game log) three starts in a row to consider it as anything more than noise.

JT gives up a homer every five innings and coupled with a walk rate of the nearly four per nine, that’s a catastrophic mix. That’s basically been what he always is too. Maybe that plays out better in short 2-3 inning bursts for him.

Thompson (so far) has combined JT’s gopher ball syndrome with Keller’s lack of K’s. That’s a 5 at best.

Bednar and Crowe do look like good pen pieces. As for Priester and Burrows, I certainly am not going to view their starts last night as anything other than one start. But they’re not likely to be in the rotation next year until August or so at best.

I don’t think that’s nearly enough to really build on. Maybe Keller keeps it up. Maybe JT figures out a way to keep the ball in the yard. But I ain’t gonna hold my breath.

Catch_22

Joe Starkey’s mailbag: Did the Pirates fix Mitch Keller? | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Now, this is interesting…Keller consulting with Holmes on his new sinker. Man, is that a bad look for Marin and the Pirates dev team. Geezus

ArkyWags

Ehhh I’m not sure I think it’s that bad. I think pitchers talk all the time across organizations. They’re always tinkering.

It’s not like Keller wasn’t a mess before Oscar was put in charge.

Catch_22

Keller has now consulted with Driveline and Holmes. What the hell has Marin done? What did he do for Holmes when he was here? What did he do for Kuhl? Musgrove?

NMR

Quite literally the only dudes who’ve improved have come through private dev.

The absolute biggest difference between Huntington Era player dev and Cherington Era player dev is the massive improvement in OUTSIDE player development.

Zero to do with the orghanization.

ArkyWags

Musgrove had his highest K rate in his career under Marin. Had 1 WAR over 8 starts. And actually, they changed his pitch mix to pretty much what it is now: more curves, less heat.

Kuhl is basically better by ERA, but he’s living off a pretty good size strand rate and has a K rate that’s dropped significantly in Colorado. I don’t think Kuhl is anything special to begin with.

Holmes is clearly a miss.

By no means do I think Marin is some sage here. Can’t make chicken salad out of mostly chicken shit.

Last edited 20 days ago by ArkyWags
roberto

Take deep breaths instead. It’s just baseball.

PiratePrimate

It’s just baseball? You might as well say, it’s just sex or it’s just your kids or even more important, your dog. Baseball is important because it is the elixir, the essence and the soul of a nation and our way of life itself.

agent00

baseball is life!

tedwins

I battle with this as well, not great and no depth, just imagine if, god forbid, we get injuries to even one or two of bru, roasny, keller, Q, or Thompson like other teams are battling thru… i think we are lucky so far, did I just say that😭

AdministrativeSky236

The last several weeks the starters (other than wilson yesterday) have been much more good than not. I think we need a few more turns of the rotation before we can be confident moving forward but both thompson and keller have been different pitchers than they were to start the season

tedwins

Yes, my flippant response, below now deleted as no value add, was an attempt of humour, this org/build process is taking steps in the right direction, when August comes we still may be struggling for MLB wins but we will see the light, young future guys everywhere competing, I assume thats the plan👏🙏👍

Last edited 20 days ago by tedwins
jedeweese

yep, but I’m getting old. I want another Series before I die 😉

AdministrativeSky236

This wave of young guys is not even close to the best of our prospects to come, only Roansy has been considered a top 10 or even 15. If we emerge from this season with even one solid to plus player with a few guys with smaller roles, then I will call it a win. We are building but its not always going to be pretty!

roberto

Indeed, it’s often ugly. In addition to facing better pitchers, better fielders, and better hitters, they will be scouted like never before. Can’t hit a high fastball? Pitchers adjust. Can’t throw a change? Batters adjust.

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