Francisco Liriano Still Deciding Whether to Accept Pirates Qualifying Offer

According to Ken Rosenthal, Francisco Liriano is still deciding whether to accept the qualifying offer made by the Pittsburgh Pirates last week. Rosenthal says that the lefty is considering “several options.”

Obviously Liriano is still deciding, since we haven’t heard anything official either way. However, there’s a bit more to this situation. We haven’t heard an official announcement on Russell Martin, but there’s a 100% chance he is going to decline the offer. The move just hasn’t been made official yet. In Liriano’s case, there was some speculation that he could accept the offer, rather than potentially damaging his value on the open market. I’d imagine he has been talking to teams, trying to get a feel for what his market would be. We’ll find out tomorrow which avenue he decides.

  • I haven’t commented here in a long time, but I had to note how much dumber I feel after reading much of this comment thread. I seriously feel like I know less about baseball than I did 20 minutes

  • How does the collective bargaining agreement work if a team signs more than one free agent in an offseason? For instance if the Cubs sign Martin and then go out and get Shields / Lester / etc., do they give up draft picks in future years (2016, 2017, etc.)?

    • 2nd rounder then their 3rd rounder, and so on, i believe.

      • Scratch that. Team giving up free agent gets 1st round compensation pick no matter what.

        • Actually, the team losing a player does not get the draft pick lost, they get a pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds

          • JAL,

            Yep, I misspoke. Compensation picks happen between the first and second rounds.

    • Lester doesn’t have a draft pick attached to him.

    • If the Cubs sign 2 free agents that have QO’s attached this year, they would forfeit their 2nd and 3rd round picks (their 1st round pick is protected since it is in the top 10.)

      The 2 teams losing those free agents would both get picks in the compensation portion of the draft, which occurs right after the 1st round, but before the competitive balance picks (which are picks given to teams who fail to sign their 1st round draft picks and the lottery picks that MLB gives out) and the 2nd round.

  • The ideal situation would be for Liriano to go bye-bye and for them to sign an equivalent pitcher.

    Might as well get the draft pick, right?

    So basically, i hope liriano either declines and signs elsewhere, or accepts. A long term agreement with him would kinda of be a waste of the comp pick.

  • Hopefully one of those “several options” is an extension that the BMTIB has offered. Really hope Frankie is back next year, this rotation desperately needs a guy like him. Would love for him to accept the QO, would love even more for Frankie and the Pirates to iron out a 2 or 3 year deal.

    It’s time for the BMTIB to put up or shut up. This is a huge offseason for them and the Pirates. The BMTIB has always said when the fans showed up and the Pirates were ready to compete that payroll would increase, well that time is now. We shall see.

    • What does BMTIB stand for? I mean context clues would be ownership/management, but just curious.

      • “Best Management Team In Baseball”

        A referral to Neil Huntington, Bob Nutting, and the rest of the Pirate front office.

      • Like FR said below, “Best Management Team In Baseball.” It’s a jab at this FO after Mr. Nutting said that the Pirates have the “best management team in baseball,” a few years back. Sadly, the BMTIB is not even in the upper half of front offices. It’s actually one of the lesser ones.

        • Nothing subjective about that opinion that you issued as a fact.

          • Well the Dodgers, Diamondbacks, and Padres all restructured their front offices, the Rays don’t have one currently, so that eliminates 4 teams from the rankings. So I would think it is Dead last) Phillies. 25) Pirates.

            • I’d take the Dodgers and Padres front offices over the BMTIB. Rays are pending on how theirs shake out, but odds are their GM will be better than Huntington because Huntington sucks big time.

              • Well when Nutting comes to his senses, I’ll forward your name to the search committee.

                • I have no idea how Nutting didn’t fire NH after 2012. It was pretty embarrassing IMO.

                  • Process versus Results.

                    • The results were 5 straight losing seasons and 2 epic collapses.

                    • Yes, divorce the process from the results, and evaluate the process.

                    • Process hasn’t been very good either. If it was good, they’d be pennant contenders. They’re not.

                    • Surely you must realize, that that’s the exact opposite of divorcing the process from the results.

                    • I think you can’t stop with “Surely you must realize” and finish it with any statement, and the answer will be “no”.

                    • Don’t hurt your back digging up those goal posts.

                    • I’m not going to settle for anything less than pennants. If I’m wrong for that, than so be it.

                    • “they’d be pennant contenders. They’re not.”

                      They were one of only 5 NL teams in the playoffs for the “pennant” this year.

                      In the last 2 years, only 2 other NL teams were in the playoffs for the “pennant”.

                      That, by definition, makes them “pennant” contenders.

                    • Making the playoffs doesn’t make you good enough to be a pennant contender, because they’re not one. No one will ever pick a 16 seed to win the NCAA Tourney.

                    • Winning the NCAA Tourney is not the equivalent of a “pennant”. I think you’re confusing a “pennant” with the World Series. A World Series is not a “pennant”.

                    • I know you can win a pennant without winning a World Series, I’m not stupid.

                    • You probably are not stupid, but your arguments say you’re not a clear thinker

                    • Just giving my opinion is all.

                    • It’s not your opinion. . You’re just bored and intaganistic

                    • Fair enough, but you’re allowing your emotion to overcome your intelligence.

        • Name one other management team that has taken a record 20 losing seasons and turned them into 2 winning seasons? They may not be the best, but they are hardly one of lesser ones, especially with the financial restraints they are dealing with.

          • Those financial restraints are self imposed. That’s their own stupid fault. I can name at least 24 front offices better than the Pirates.

            • Sure, if you compare apples to oranges. Regardless if they’re self-imposed or not, that’s what is current reality.

              • Because they’re cheap liars who don’t care.

                • I learned a long time ago not to wrap thi much hate into something I like. I root for who’s wearing the uniform. I root against those that aren’t. I don’t agree with every move, but I also don’t have all the facts that went into it either. If I hate something as much as you hate, I move on. I’ve never understood you guys that bash everything the team does. No matter what they do, you find another reason to bitch and moan. They’re competitive, I’m happy.

                  • The goal should not be to be competitive. The goal should be to win pennants.

                    • The goal of the players I suppose. . But if it’s that important to you and you get this emotionally invested.. start rooting for a large market team instead.. there’s 30 teams.. given that we’re in the bottom third in market… it’s not totally unreasonable to not win a ws in 50 years.. at least then your expectations you place on your team would be more reasonable

                    • I get this emotionally invested because I love the Pittsburgh Pirates. I don’t give a damn about any large market team. Rooting for one would accomplish nothing.

                    • Marty, I hope that you are a young man, because there’s no way a grown man in his right mind, gets this emotionally invested to the point of irrationality.

                      I hate to break it to you, the odds of the Pirates winning the World Series, is quite slim. It has little to do with the FO. That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t sit back and enjoy the game. By all means, put the game of baseball into the perspective of ones life. Look at the death of Oscar Tavares or a family member and see how that ranks on your list of priorities.

                    • Well, if you’re wondering, I am 23. The Pirates chances of winning the WS are slim, yes. However, IMO, it is due to the moronic idiots that make up the BMTIB. They absolutely suck! Also, to be perfectly honest, outside of my father and my girlfriend I don’t think anything in my life is as important to me as Pirate baseball. Just the way it is. They’re toward the top of my priority list.

                    • Word of advice. . Get your ged and join the military

                    • Get my GED? Well considering I’m a senior in college, just yeah I’m not going to call you the first thing that came to mind….

                    • Well, that explains all the angst and the “I’ve got the world all figured out” schtick.

                    • Never said I have the world figured out.

                    • Leave Jtown as soon as possible and discover that a whole other world exists.

                    • Already left once, hated it. Came back a year and a half later. Johnstown is where my friends and family are.

                    • Sounds like hate is a strong emotion in you. Perhaps it wasn’t where you moved or the BMTIB, maybe it’s you.

                    • There are few things in this world I hate. The BMTIB, the Pittsburgh Steelers, Ohio State Football, about the only 3 that come to mind. I also hate being unhappy, and when I tried moving away I was unhappy.

                    • Since the Pirates are 3rd on your list behind your dad and GF, you sound awfully unhappy. Again bro, look in the mirror.

                    • Just because I am very passionate about my favorite baseball team doesn’t make me unhappy, because I am not.

                    • I agree. What you fail to see, is your irrationality. You can disagree with FO all day, but just saying you hate them doesn’t make them inept.
                      What MTIB, would be better and how ?

                    • I’d rather have the Cardinals, Cubs, Reds, Dodgers, Padres, Giants, Braves, Nationals, Yankees, Orioles, Blue Jays, Red Sox, Rays, Rangers, Angels, Mariners, Royals, Tigers, Twins, Whtie Sox, A’s, and Indians FO than the BMTIB.

                    • If my math is accurate, 9 of those 22 made the playoffs. Only 10 make the playoffs. Oops, the other was the Pirates. The BMTIB outdid the 13 of those teams. It appear that they should be at least in the top third of mgmt teams, based off recent results.
                      You failed to say why you like those other 22 mgmt teams. Just saying you like them isn’t enough.

                    • The BMTIB sucks!

                  • A voice of reason. Thx

                • Bro, Huntington and Coonelly aren’t owners. It’s ok you don’t like them, just be able to back up your claim . You can’t

                  • It was reported that at the deadline this year Nutting gave NH financial approval to go out and add pieces, he did not. Last offseason he let a lot of money go unspent. That’s on dopey, not Nutting. Even though Nutting is a real piece of garbage, IMO, too.

                    • So whatever pieces he should’ve gotten would’ve propelled them to the World Series?

                    • Did I ever say that? No. But would it have made the team better and given them a better shot at winning a pennant? Yes. But the BMTIB doesn’t care about pennants.

                    • You’re doubling down on stupid. Why?

                    • You have a lot of hate bottled in! You should see someone for that.

                    • I have a lot of hate for this FO, yes that is correct. They make my blood boil when I think of how their wasting the Pirates window. To say I hate the BMTIB is an understatement.

              • I am with you all the way on this Bill. These are the kind of comments that usually get me fired up too, but you and some others here are doing fine.

    • Actually, not to dampen your hatred for Nutting, but their payroll has increased, maybe not where you want it. Can’t believe you are still spitting out the “BMTIB” tag. Two playoffs and you’re still mad? Keep those goalposts moving to suit your arguments.

      • This payroll should be at least $100M, zero excuses for it not to be. I’ll never support the BMTIB unless they win a pennant, which they never will. I hate Neal much, much, much more than Nutting. Neal needs fired ASAP. Should have been fired after the 2012 season. It’s very clear Neal has no idea what he’s doing. IMO, he’s one of the 5 worst GMs in baseball.

        • Without knowing what their revenue is, that’s an impossible argument to make. But their prices are much lower than other markets their size and the local cable deal is peanuts compariatively speaking. Whether Huntington should have been fired then is arguable. But since then they have made the playoffs twice. Those accomplishments will buy anybody time. Their ability to stay ahead of the curve will determine how long he lasts as well as others.

          • NH dropped the ball last offseason, then dropped it yet again at the deadline this year. Had he added a pitcher of any sort (a starter or a bullpen arm) then, IMO, Bucs win the division in 2014. But he hoards prospects and is far too timid so no deals were made. He must go. This team will never take the next step with him as GM. It’s pretty bad when your star player calls you out in the media, I just hope that gets the BMTIB to wake up and bring in some talent this offseason.

            • Don’t necessarily agree that winning the division was this cut and dry. Not to mention that the assets being traded at the deadline were major league pieces not prospects. I’m not trading Marte for an arm with little to no control.

              • Oh yeah: There’s quite a history of star players and not-so-star players calling out their management. You shouldn’t get so worked up about it.

                • I hope the Pirates listen, that’s all. Even though I don’t expect them too. If I was Cutch I’d want out.

                  • Lol. Listen to what exactly.. you’re not saying anything of substance. . Just hate

                    • Listen to their superstar player asking them to put a championship caliber team around him. And, yeah, I do hate, detest, despise, loathe, whatever other word you can think of this front office. I feel that way about them because I love the Pirates.

                    • Certainly not you

                    • Hahahaha!!!

                    • I know, it is funny how bad the BMTIB is. I don’t blame you for laughing at them.

            • They did add a bullpen arm of any sort: John Axford and John Holdzkom. Care to revise your rash pronouncements so they reflect reality a little better?

              • Axford was never used, and came 3 weeks too late. Holdzkom came a month too late. Need help at the actual deadline. Too much to ask of the BMTIB.

                • You said a pitcher of any sort.

                  • At the trade deadline.

                    • How many leads did the bullpen blow in that time?

                    • Too many.

                    • Gimme a number. You have a tendency to feel that things are worse than the numbers actually say they were.

                    • I feel that way because with the Pirates things always suck. 20 straight losing seasons, the laughing stock of professional sports, an incompetent front office, no willingness to take the next step to contend for a pennant…

                    • So… no number then?

                    • The Pirates lost more games when tied/leading in the 6th inning or later than any other team in the NL this year. But you keep drinking that BMTIB kool aide and keep telling yourself the bullpen was ok!!

                    • How many after the trading deadline?

                • Pirates record AFTER the trade deadline: 31-23. What magical number did you want? How much help did they need?

                  • Their pitching staff was one of the NL’s worst, they needed quite a bit of help.

                    • How many pitching staffs complied the record they did in the month of September in the history of the game? If it wasn’t for that pitching staff, which there were more than a few low scoring games, they would’ve never gotten into the playoffs. Period.

                    • That is true, because the Pirates supposedly vaunted offense disappeared in September. However, the pitching staff cost them countless games before September. On July 31st, they needed pitching help and the BMTIB decided to not get any.

                    • I don’t think anyone said that the 2014 Pirates resembled Murderers Row. Sure, their staff lost some games that they should not have, but tell me what staff hasn’t?
                      Again buddy, you can dislike the FO all that you want, but the “what if” game rings hollow.

                    • I’ll be playing the what if game all offseason.

                    • Oh goody.

                    • Lots of things to what if about. What if they didn’t sit on their hands at the deadline, what if Cole started the WC game, what if they added another arm last offseason, what if they dumped Wandy sooner. Lots of what ifs, lots.

                    • What if you didn’t live in Johnstown, would you have a more positive outlook on life?

                      Given that Madison Baumgarner had an unbelievable post season, it’s hard to play that “what if” game.

                    • First off, it’s kind of weird you know where I live. Second off, I’m not sure what that has to do with anything.

                    • It’s on your profile. Actually it has a lot to do with how you view things. Many people in that area, are negative about life. Let’s just say, I know from experience.

                    • Well I’m damn proud of where I come from.

                    • Didn’t say you shouldn’t be proud. I’m proud too. I’m also proud that I didn’t stick around because when I get back, it’s nothing but negative and a changed town.

                    • Well, Bill, I still watch you on the channel 6 news every morning. I also don’t plan on leaving any time soon on account of the fact I have a good life here.

                    • Bro, m not on channel 6 because I don’t live in Jtown. If you had a good life, then you wouldn’t be obsessed about the Pirates, to where they affect you personally.

                    • I think I have a good life.

                    • Here you are on the channel 6 news!

                    • K, if you say so. If I am, why would I be going back and forth with you?

                    • I’m just kidding. Since you said you don’t live in the J, I know you can’t be the Bill Brown on the news.

          • Don’t fall for it indy.. he’s got nothing but hate to offer.. I found out the previous thread

        • Well, the authoritative and objective voice that is marty has spoken. That certainly settles that.

          • Sorry, IMO Neal Huntington absolutely sucks. The Pirates will never be more than Wild Card contenders with him as GM. Need someone willing to take the next step, NH is not that guy.

            • Yeah, well, your opinion is extremely biased and has very little basis in fact backing it up. Sorry right back at ya.

              • It’ll be a fact when they never win a WS with this idiot as GM.

                • You have a very bad record with your predictions, Nostradamus, so…

                  • Unless the BMTIB drastically changes how they operate, the Pirates will never win a WS with them running the show. I don’t blame Cutch for calling them out for being terrible and being upset.

                • Since Huntington has become GM, only 5 different teams have won the World Series. That’s a lot of teams who haven’t won the World Series. Guess there’s a ton of “idiot” GMs.

                  • And cheap owners.. damn those owners who refuse to buy championships

                  • No, GMs don’t become idiots by failing to win the WS. They become idiots by performing their job like NH does. I despise that human being.

              • Why does it matter so much to you that marty34156 has a different opinion about Pirates management? Does it really bother you that somebody has a different opinion?

                • No, he can have any opinion that he wants. And I can put forth that his opinion is not something that any rational person oughta put stock in.

                  It’s the emphatic, “thus sayeth marty” pronouncements that we’re all expected to just go along with that bothers me.

                  • I’ve never once said I expect everyone to just go along with me and agree with me. Not once.

                    • No. But nor have you ever once tempered your pronouncements with any sort of words to the effect that “reasonable minds can differ.” You either hate the management or you’re drinking Kool Aid in your world. Facts, fallacies, and your terrible track record of predictions be damned– your opinion is trotted out repeatedly and pointedly with nary a nod to the idea that maybe, just maybe, your opinion is not as authoritative as you want it to be.

                    • I’m not trying to make it authoritative, I’m just giving my opinion. However, people tend to spin it. I’m often times jumped, degraded, attacked, words put in my mouth, etc. over what I say. But, whatever, I’m used to it at this point.

                    • BS. You can’t make the emphatic pronouncements you make and then give this “I’m just giving my humble opinions. I’m the victim here,” crap. You wrote what you wrote; you gotta live with the fact that any reasonable reading of it says that you think that you’re the one who’s got it all figured out and anyone who disagrees worships the FO.

                    • I’ve never said I’ve got it all figured out, but I am often times criticized immensely and attacked for giving my opinion because I think this front office absolutely sucks. No need to attack someone for giving their opinion, or to make personal attacks on them (not that I am accusing you of that because I am not) that I have been victim of in the past.

                  • Does it really bother you? I think you are lying. Isn’t it really just an excuse to act like a bully while enjoying the safe anonymity of the internet?

                    • Yes, it really does.

                      Call me a liar and bully to my face anytime you feel like it, pal.

                    • Did all the girls tease you back in high school? Is that why you try to seem like a stereotypical macho douchebag?

                    • Um. You’re the one that picked the fight and took issue with him

                    • I know, right? But this guy gets to ouchy when you push his buttons. It’s kind of funny. Don’t mention anything to him… let’s wait and see if his panties get bunched up.

                    • True.. but it’s sunday and the football game sucks so marty is killing time by rousing everyone up.. we’re all obliging cause we’re bored as well.. marty is getting what he is asking for. We all owe marty a thank you for killing an hour

                    • Marty is just giving his opinion. In no way, shape, or form is he just trying to rouse people up.

                    • I don’t believe for one minute that you hate this fo.. you haven’t given any indication why you do, therefore one has to believe you have an alternative reason for your comments

                    • I hate this FO because I love the Pittsburgh Pirates and realize they’ll never win a WS with this FO in charge.

                    • Not buying it partner.. if you love the buccos then these last two years have rocked.. we have the bmtib to thank for the awesome time it’s been.. you know this.. the hate stuff is all made up

                    • I loved 2013, loved every f’n second of it. 2014 frustrated the hell out of me because of the BMTIB.

                    • I think nh came out and said last years free agent period didn’t go as planned.. he’s learning though.. he also gets his ass kicked in trades.. if you just look at major league player acquisition you’re missing the big picture though.. they’ve developed a system of pitching to a superior defense based on player positioning by focusing on inducing groun d balls and pitching inside.. on offense they preach hitting to all fields, limiting the impact of shifts.. they identify things such as martins pitch framing value two years before the market does… that’s why they’re the bmtib.. not because they can pay for known talent, but because they can identify and exploit market loopholes

                    • I hope he’s learning.

                    • I don’t understand.

                      The Pirates that you love so much have been losers throughout your entire lifetime.

                      And then this FO builds a team that finally breaks into the playoffs for your first 2 times ever.

                      And you want to toss them out. Doesn’t really compute. Perhaps your anger is misguided. But, you’re entitled to hate whomever you wish. Not sure what you’re wanting though. Most would be thrilled and enjoying every moment of the Buccos success. I sure am.

                    • Wow, did you just go third person? It’s not the fact that you have opinions, or that you have a strange unnatural hate for the GMTA that brings you scorn. It’s the fact that all your dislike is centered around your dislike and you offer nothing in the way of facts to back up your feelings. You really should back up and put things in perspective. No team should occupy this much of your emotion. It’s bound to adversely effect the rest of your life. Take it from an old man, you don’t need that.

                    • I was in a war. I don’t sweat the likes of you.

                      However, I do take issue with this “why are you so ouchy that someone has a different opinion” schtick you repeatedly trot out. Judging by your comment history, you trot it out a lot. I think you need a refresher on how the internet works:

                      If you post something someone disagrees with, they are allowed to take issue with it. If you’re gonna interpret that as everyone being intolerant of opposing opinions and then think it’s a valid counterargument, then you got issues.

                    • No need to hide it any longer. You joined the Marine Corps so you could shower with other men. There is no shame in that. Hold your head high soldier boy.

                    • The Army is soldiers. Marines are jarheads or devil dogs.

                      Happy Veteran’s Day, dipshit.

                    • But they all look the same naked, right?

                    • KC, I hope that after some reflection you will agree that your comment about service in the military in behalf of the nation is inappropriate.

                    • I am pretty sure nobody in the military could possibly care any less what I think of them, so I doubt my comment changes anything for anybody.

                    • Plus, it was supposed to be “so” ouchy. But I can see why my typo could be confusing. Damn these tiny keys and my overly large digits.

                  • Lol. For me it’s the depth of hate he has with such little reasoning… I just can’t help but think he’ll eventually say something of value

            • ‘They will never have a winning season,’ er, ‘They will never have another winning season,’ er, ‘They can only make the playoffs by Wildcard.’ Hopefully, after next season you’ll be forced to move those goalposts once again. The Pirates have a solid core, had one of the best offenses in the league and has been able to fill holes with a limited payroll. Party on, Garth.

              • Their core isn’t that good. Outside of Cole, there really isn’t any pitching. Cutch and Marte are awesome, but that’s about it offensively. I love Polanco, but he has a lot left to prove still.

                • “Outside of Cole, there really isn’t any pitching.”

                  Nick Kingham and Jameson Taillon hate you.

                  • Has either ever pitched in the Majors? No. Taillon also has injury concerns. I think Kingham will max out as a #3 start in the Majors, Taillon will be a bust.

                  • Tyler Glasnow is sad because you forgot him.

                    • Best case scenario for Glasnow is a closer. He has no control, and no secondary pitch.

                    • How many times have you watched Glasnow pitch?

                    • How many times have you bowed down to NH and sung his praise? Going to guess a lot.

                    • I agree! Glasnow apparently LOVES to walk batters. His BB% is absurd, and unless he makes major changes it will only increase as he moves up and faces more advanced hitters. I think Glasnow is a late-inning reliever waiting to happen.

                    • I could see him being like Craig Kimbrel, which isn’t really a bad thing. But he can’t throw strikes consistently, and has no secondary pitch. Like you said, that has late inning reliever written all over it.

                    • You’re right, that 4.1 BB/9 is unbelievable.

                      I mean, guys like Clayton Kershaw only had a, wait a minute, let me look it up, 4.6 BB/9 when they were in A ball. Oh, that’s worse isn’t it.

                      How about Max Scherzer?? Well, he didn’t spend much time in A ball, let’s look at his AA stats. Oh, man, 4.9 BB/9.

                      Oh, forget it. You’re right. Glasnow is doomed.

                    • Good to know Glasnow is the next Kershaw.

                    • The point is maybe you shouldn’t write him off just because it fits your narrative that “they have no pitching.”

                    • It’s the Pirates, nothing goes right for them. Combine that with the BMTIB being sucky, and there’s no reason to believe things will work out.

                    • Thus sayeth marty.

                    • Sorry, forgot I’m not allowed to give my opinion without being perceived as an attempted cult of personality.

                    • Yep. You’re the victim here.

                    • I’ve been attacked personally for voicing my opinion on more than one occasions by various Pirate posters on different sites. That’s all I was saying.

                    • It’s kind of weird, right? Comparing Glasnow to Kershaw using only 1 stat? When Kershaw was 20, he posted a 7.9% BB rate in AA and am 11.1% rate in the majors. At ages 20-21, Glasnow posted a 13.5% BB rate in A ball and an 11.6% BB rate in high-A. The only time Scherzer even approached a BB% as high as Glasnow was in 73 innings in 2007; otherwise Scherzer has had much better control than Glasnow and usually limits his BB% to 6.5% to 8%.

                      It is also weird to suggest I said Glasnow is “doomed.” That is weird to say. My opinion is that his control problems will limit him to relief pitching, where he can rely on his fastball more often and face fewer LH hitters.

                      I hope it does not make your feelings ouchy that I have a different opinion about Glasnow than you. There is no need to convince me how much better you are at predicting the careers of minor league pitchers.

                    • You and Marty were trying to say that 20-year-old Glasnow will not pan out to be a MLB starter in the future because of lack of control and secondary pitches.

                      I was merely giving you 2 examples of pitchers that were walking more guys per game AT THAT AGE, who have turned into the “ace” pitchers everyone seems to be pining for. Not saying that BECAUSE of the 2 aforementioned pitchers turned it around, that Glasnow will too, just saying it’s not insurmountable. The logical fallacies of argument are quite enjoyable to watch by a select few!

                      Also, it’s well-known the Pirates only work on fastball command at the lower levels. Doesn’t mean a guy doesn’t have a secondary pitch, just means the Pirates do things in a certain order.

                      Certainly Glasnow could be a bust or everything that you say. Very few players ever get out of the minor leagues to become productive major league players, so of course, every prospect could fail (and most are likely to.) But, I wouldn’t list a guy as having no chance at being a starter based on how he looks at 20-years-old.

                    • Well now… I see you have no eye for nuance. But I can work with you. I never said Glasnow has no chance at being a starter. I think his most likely career path is as a short reliever. But who cares what either of us thinks might happen. Glasnow will do whatever he is going to do. We will see.

                    • I was going to mention Glasnow, but I figured that was going to get the obligatory “he’s too far away” comment.